Werewolves - Science?

[Lycanthropy]

If werewolves don't already exist they could in theory be created in the future or be given to somebody via injection or something, even bite? People will eventually will be able to change their DNA in many ways. :shift:

[Tyraelis]

If someone could, it would be very hard to express genes, as the body growth hormones would also have to be present and injected/created when specifically needed. If it were possible, there could be genetic engineering of the fertilized egg after point of fertilization, and alter the genes so the growing fetus would result in a more wolven, perhaps hairy form. However, the placenta, amnionic sac, and other parts of gestation would need to be adapted for that process first, so the mother would have needed to have been genetically engineered so she could bear a child like that in the first place.

[Arsenic]

You could do it in steps, by making each following generation just a bit more lupine.

A change in adulthood would be impossible with todays tecnology, but future tec like nano tecnology could be a solution.

Besides, with mammals the mother doesn't need to be the same species as the fetus, as long as the womb ( etc. ) is large enough to accomodate the child it should work.

[Lycanthropy]

A reugular person could change when he like if he had the proper nano tech at his command, would require many microchips a nano bots to accomplish though. :shift:

[Arsenic]

And if you wanted the change to occur in a resonable time frame ( +/- 1 hour ), a massive amount of energy.

[Tyraelis]

Nanobots, still a distant concept (well, the kind that are smart enough), would not only have to change the bone structure, but also alter the blood vessels, brain shape (and somehow maintain the shape and details), and others...

[Indiana_Jones]

Didn't Nanobots came from Cowboy Bebob the movie? And other things.

Werewolf in science, it could happen in the near future. (But no Indy werewolf, cause he usually belongs in the 1920's to 1940's. Also he is human).

[Tyraelis]

Near future? Think again- not that it's impossible, but there are many unknowns concerning genetic engineering (well, the more complicated things, like shape and size, etc. compared to secretions), and nanotechnology has a long way to go.

Wait, didn't Indiana Jones drink from the Holy Grail in the Last Crusade? He was granted extra-long life!

[Arsenic]

We know a lot of our own genome, and those of other animals are also going to be well known. The only great obstacle is a moral one, most people think that it is wrong to change an animal.

[Tyraelis]

We have great knowledge about our genome's labels. We don't know the effects of altering those. Genetic engineering the bone structure and non-glandular secretions are currently outside of our knowledge.

[Arsenic]

That's the thing about genetic engeneering, genes are not like a blueprint where when you are desgining something new you need to know how everything works. Genes are more like a cookbook where you just have to tell them to make a fruite cake with icing and cherries ontop, all the minor things get handled automatically.

[Убейте Волка]

heard they've already done this.

Its more like cosmetic, or something. just your appearance, and not any bone structures moving lol

More like fileing your teeth down on the sides to make them look like fangs, hair growth, replaceing your nails with those that look more canine.

Its right there, already in modern sceince, but its nothing to do with bone changes and its not like a simple 100$ trip lol, i bet it takes a big wad of cash to complete such a look y'know?

[Sinner Chrono]

Originally posted by Indiana_Jones@Sep 19 2005, 09:03 PM
Didn't Nanobots came from Cowboy Bebob the movie? And other things.

Werewolf in science, it could happen in the near future. (But no Indy werewolf, cause he usually belongs in the 1920's to 1940's. Also he is human).

124

nano is technogly right now. it wasint taken from a anime XD

i dont think it isint possible any time soon, maybe in 70 years..but now? i don't think so.

[Arsenic]

Originally posted by Убей
@Sep 24 2005, 08:13 AM
heard they've already done this.

Its more like cosmetic, or something.* just your appearance, and not any bone structures moving* lol

More like fileing your teeth down on the sides to make them look like fangs,* hair growth, replaceing your nails with those that look more canine.*

Its right there, already in modern sceince,* but its nothing to do with bone changes and its not like a simple 100$ trip* lol,* i bet it takes a big wad of cash to complete such a look y'know?

159


I wasn't actually talking about cosmetic surgery but about inherrent genetic properties.

@Chrono: Technology can progress fast ( take computers ), the first steps have allready been set.

[Убейте Волка]

Oh, well thats a differnt story.

I dont wanna sound blunt, but i doubt it.



i mean they could probably mess your genes, as maybe...a test tube baby lol or maybe when your still in the womb, i dunno, and from that you would grow characteristics resembling a wolf? as i said before i doubt your bone structure wouldnt change, but it might, and if it did i think you would come out horribly disfigured.... and from that your genes as you pass them on would more resemble a wolf, if not already immediate. Good luck finding a girlfreind though lol

[Arsenic]

You have seen tomany movies Убей.

Off course there would be a lot of questions about it's morality. And then of course there are chimeras but I don't know how they would turn out if they grew further than fetuses.

[Убейте Волка]

nah, i havent seen to many movies.

See, its kinda hard for me to produce actual hard bound scientific thoughts and comments on becoming a mythical animal like this that has possibly never existed.

Maybe it is you that has seen too many movies? :)

[Убейте Волка]

btW what is a Chimera?

[Tyraelis]

A Chimera, according to the Oxford English Dictionary:

Chimera) (in Greek mythology) a fire-breathing female monster with a lion's head, a goat's body, and a serpent's tail. ? any mythical animal with parts taken from various animals.

Biology an organism containing a mixture of genetically different tissues, formed by processes such as fusion of early embryos, grafting, or mutation : the sheeplike goat chimera.

I'm not going to include the Rabbitfish.

[Arsenic]

We are talking about what a werewolf would be like and how it would work if it's bound to our understanding of schience.

BTW, please don't double post. you can edit your posts.

[Tyraelis]

I believe that genetic engineering is the way towards making more permanent, natural werewolves with bipedal stance and around-human intelligence. If one really desired the option to change (with great pain and danger), it would take nanotechnology to bestow the changes.

[Arsenic]

Yes, while a human-wolf crossover is posssible at this day and age a real changing werewolf is still ( somewhat ) far off.

[Убейте Волка]

Arsenic, it takes a while for this fourm to load (No offence or pressure ment)

and i had to leave so i just did a fast reply instead.


I mean, it didnt kill you did it?

[Tyraelis]

Why would it take a while? Don't you have multiple pages showing only a certain # of posts?

It shouldn't take you a long time... if anything, it's the avatars. Arsenic isn't responsible, as he's without one.

[Flashpoint Gold]

There have been some sort of human chimeras but they died before birth. There is one type of chimera that can survive, a human/human chimera. It is made up of two different strands of DNA that don't match. They match as family, but not the same person.

How it happens is that there are supposed to be twins but one of the fertile eggs dies and is absorbed by the other.

With or advances in technolgy we might be able to keep the ones that can't normally survive to survive.

[Arsenic]

Originally posted by Tyraelis@Sep 30 2005, 05:50 AM
Why would it take a while?* Don't you have multiple pages showing only a certain # of posts?

It shouldn't take you a long time... if anything, it's the avatars.* Arsenic isn't responsible, as he's without one.

373


Haha I'm better than youse!! :closedgrin:

Sorry, I couldn't help posting this.

[Bladewolf_Carlile]

I believe that making a wolf-human hypbrid could be possible in the near future, i believe the best way to transform the human into the werewolf is by using the virus to transfur the DNA into thge human bodie (note: virus can change dnas!)

If it does happen in my lifetime, i'm sure hell want to become on :shift: :laugh:

[Flashpoint Gold]

I give you props Bladewolf. I forgot about that. :howl:

[Tyraelis]

I know about that- it was in my AP Biology class last year, and I've read about it from before. However, the viruses would be one-time use only, because the body would develop the immunity to the virus after that (and there would need to be retinkering). If you want the name of the method... I'll have to find it in my biology notes. A hefty number to go through (of course, Flashpoint's likely to find it before me :smile: ).

To restate what I've read and known, scientists know the locations of genes, not the exact effect of changing what genes to another will do. Simple transgenic organisms are easier to work with, but there are more complicated mechanisms involved in the growth a muscular, mobile organism (plants change direction mainly by swelling cellulose cells on one side of their stem/joint to cause it to bend away).

[Flashpoint Gold]

You know that a virus can modify itself. So you wouldn't be immune to it. Oh wait, I think that can only happen if it goes through someone else first and then back to you. I don't know! But think it could be changed if someone reengineers it. You will have to get some of the virus outside of your body first. The search is on.


:pc:

[Flashpoint Gold]

Nevermind I lost! I probably could find more on the virus subject, but not now.

[Tyraelis]

If the virus mutated, the resulting generations might (and probably would) not have the correct changes.

[Flashpoint Gold]

But thats if it wasn't controlled to just change the ability to get it again.

[Arsenic]

If you modefied from a HIV virus you would bypass the problem off immunity but you would make it far less contagious. And iff you were thinking of a flu virus, it would be to hard to contain.

[Tyraelis]

I know about the method of using the HIV virus, but it isn't proven to be safe, given the circumstances. Aside from it's ability to spread from cell to cell in the body, it would have to have its lysing command erased, which would insure a very short life span for the virus and an incomplete change. Plus, the RNA reverse transcriptase (which makes RNA into DNA) doesn't add the HIV coding to the human genetic code, it simply introduces it to the nucleus, which continues to create HIV cells, but not modified proteins for transcription (the process where RNA is interpreted to assemble proteins).

[Leo]

Heck! you know a lot :surprised: , dont mind if I ever ask you about this theme when I need doing some research ? :closedgrin:

[Tyraelis]

Comes from taking a college-level biology class where we covered the entire book... plus, I'm going to be getting more info next fall, when I have my next biology course planned...

Sure, I'll try to answer questions if they pertain to the story.

[Arsenic]

:closedgrin: Then I'm doing quite well ( I have absolutely no education on that subject ).

First off we need to know what we actually want to do with this virus, do we want to infect a large population with lasting effect or is it a personal one off treatment?

[Tyraelis]

If there was such a virus (it would take corporate funding and technology), it couldn't be released in a large population. It would have to be rendered incommunicable, so it could only be used to infect a single host at a time. Can you imagine the backlash if people were infected against their will? It would turn into a witch-hunt for the people who released it.

[rhys]

I think you guys are overlooking the actual mechanics of the change, as it pertains to the human body. Think about what has to happen to your body in order to go through a shift. Bones all have to reshape themselves and move around, some have to disappear, and some new ones have to grow. Think about how long it takes a broken bone to heal, (6-12 weeks),. Now think about how long it takes for bones to grow from infancy to their full size (18 years or so). so just from the bones, we can branch the arguement. Either a) the human would have to enter a coma-like state, where the changes would occur at the natural rate, in which case we could reasonably expect the change to take several years, or b) the change could occur, as it is represented by movies, stories and comics (including this one), in a few minutes. It doesn't sound like you're thinking about the long term option, so...

Ok so now that you've experienced a sensation roughly equivalent to having your entire skeleton pulverized, lets think about the circulatory system. If we're going full wolf here, this would have to be radically altered, new vessels will have to grow, old ones will have to close off, some bigger, some smaller, and when you're done, your body is roughly 1/2 as big as it was. Where did all that extra blood go? And while we're at it, how's your heart going to feel while it's changing, and moving around, and not getting all the blood it's used to. The sheer level of agony would probably stop the poor thing.

The last thing I'll point out (before being flamed into oblivion for this post as a whole) is the brain. Brain tissue is very delicate, especially the parts relating to memory and thought. The problem is that all memory is essentially single cells that have been used together for so long that they've drifted close together and have a fairly weak bond, sort of like the way a screwdriver gets a little bit magnetic after you use it a bunch. The more you think about something, the stronger that bond gets, but the 2 cells are never really one unit. A severe blow to the head can make people forget all sorts of things, because the cells slide away from each other. Now, take your brain, shake it up, shrink it down, feed in all new instinctual memories (how to hunt, how to deal with your new sence of smell, etc.) and stick it in a wolf's body. Let's assume you change into a wolf, and somehow magange to change back. Miraculously you're still alive (and that would indeed be a miricle). What do you think the chances are that all of your brain cells changed back into exactly what they were before? Went back to the exacxt same positions as before? And even if that did happen, the bonds still wouldn't be there, because those bonds can't be fixed once they're broken. They have to be rebuilt from the ground up.

Sadly, I don't think even nanotech will allow for a true change. Perhaps we will one day be able to engineer people to be born in a semi human state, but a shifter? Not for at least another 10-20 generations, and probably not even then.

[Tyraelis]

You seem to have ignored the fact that we weren't dwelling on the whole viability of change, merely the methods that could obtain such a change.

If you want me to tell you a thing or two about nerve cells (which make up the main part of the brain), I will. Regarding your 2nd paragraph on how the body is reduced to half the size... well, it has never been pointed out that a full-wolf form werewolf would be the same size as a normal wolf. For all we know, it could have the same proportional size to maintain the 5.2 liters of blood/bodily fluids in the body (if not, blood could leak out via body ducts, including the digestive tract, mouth, tear ducts, etc.). I know that in the body, it takes the fetus of a human 9 months in relative suspension to allow its bones and muscles to develop enough to continue growing. Even in a coma, people couldn't survive, as the lung cavity would collapse if bones dissolved, and if their spinal column and cranium had to reshape, plus blood vessels having no support or attach points; all in all, even your argument is futile- no one could change with going into comas, and you're simply saying what I've said before- it's extremely unlikely that any method of "shapeshifting" could arise.

[kitetsu]

1) pick an animal DNA. Say a falcon + wolf.

2) ask your scientist to "lock" your DNA strain so that you wouldn't have to change back to a human.

3) pray that you'd look cooler.

4) hope that your newfound gifts can help everyone else, you included.

call me naive, but that's how i'd like it.

[Arsenic]

1. DNA doesn't shape your body, if I had my DNA in my body swapped with that of a mammal with the same chromosome count as me not much would happen ( it's the kids ).

2. what do you mean with 'locking' your DNA?

3. falcon+wolf juggled together at sheer luck? Don't keep your hopes up with looking good, or living ( long ).

As I allready said, changing the DNA doesn't change the body of a allready fully grown individual, you would need to have something that changes the body, something that can either harness the body's own repair systems ( not advisable ) or uses something external ( nanotec ).

[Tyraelis]

Arsenic's got this one pretty covered: RNA, not DNA, affects how the body grows for the most part, and the body doesn't necessarily or entirely change if the DNA is altered. I was also going to question the concept of what is "locking" the DNA?

You might (if the technology was advanced enough and knowledge had documented how to) be able to get a mix of falcon+wolf traits, but it wouldn't look good...

[Night Wolf]

:eyebrow: I don't understand not even half of what's here...You guys might even make a thesis 'bout that :closedgrin:

[Tyraelis]

What, as in, you don't understand what's being discussed, or you don't get what the thread's point is?

[Night Wolf]

No, I understand what the thread's all about, poist is: my biology classes aren't in english :closedgrin: I get a bit of the idea....
Go on, keep discussing... :smile:

[rhys]

Hey Tyrealis,

Let me just point out, first off, that I really enjoy arguing stuff like this. I think it's highly entertaining, so given the opportunity I will ramble on indefinately. Now, maybe I'm reading in emotional subtext that isn't there, but your post sounded rather cranky. If this really starts to get under your fur, let me know and I'll drop it, but until then, I'll go ahead and reply to your points. And for referance, if this comes accross as sounding irritable, or angry, I assure you, that stuff wasn't put in there by me.



You seem to have ignored the fact that we weren't dwelling on the whole viability of change, merely the methods that could obtain such a change.

This seems to be a rather odd statement. If some method could obtain such a change, wouldn't it be viable by definition?


If you want me to tell you a thing or two about nerve cells (which make up the main part of the brain), I will.

You can tell me anything you want to tell me. I'm always willing to learn. But, I do know for a fact that nerve cells themselves hold no information, it's the pattern that's important. The overall point of that whole section was that maintaining the pattern would be completely impossible by any means known to modern science, thus the poor guy/gal being transformed would come out of it a drooling idiot, more than likely.


Regarding your 2nd paragraph on how the body is reduced to half the size... well, it has never been pointed out that a full-wolf form werewolf would be the same size as a normal wolf.

This is very true. The issue here was a clarity error on my part. When I said "we're going full-wolf here", I meant a person becoming a literal wolf, as in canis lupis. Sorry if that was unclear.


Even in a coma, people couldn't survive

Again, the thoughts in my head fail to transfer into text. I wasn't thinking a literal coma, which is why I used the term coma-like. I was thinking more along the lines of a scientific type establishment, with people suspended in tanks of liquid (think Resident Evil 2, the movie), or, alternately, some sort of chrysalis, like a butterfly. Not really sure how the whole coccoon thing would come about. Anyway, the goal of the thing was to say that such drastic physical change is (currently, at least) completely impossible while the subject is awake. If the subject is "shut down" (for lack of a better term), it would require skilled supervision, and a proper environment, or else the change itself would have to keep you alive while it's progressing.

Lastly, I realize that you already said that the thing was impossible. You obviously aren't the last, and I probably won't be either. The question of possibility vs impossibility isn't the issue. It's the reasoning that's important.


PS: From context, I would say that "locking your DNA" means that once you change, your DNA won't spontaniously change back. A strange concept, but an interesting one. If the shift were genetic, what would trigger the change, and what would determine where it stops?

[kitetsu]

Originally posted by Tyraelis@Oct 8 2005, 08:59 AM
Arsenic's got this one pretty covered: RNA, not DNA, affects how the body grows for the most part, and the body doesn't necessarily or entirely change if the DNA is altered.* I was also going to question the concept of what is "locking" the DNA?

You might (if the technology was advanced enough and knowledge had documented how to) be able to get a mix of falcon+wolf traits, but it wouldn't look good...

616



i'm pretty much the only person who's so dumb that "dumb" is an understatement, so i had to say something stupid :-*

[Tyraelis]

Sorry:

I'm being a bit angry, mainly because of schoolwork. Plus the fact that I'm sick with a long-term cold, it kinda bothers me. I just am even shorter tempered than usual...

OK, I'll make it a policy of mine to avoid saying anything if I can't do anything to correct problems without getting emotional.

[rhys]

I'ts all good, man.

I didn't even mean to sound like I was coming down on you for being cranky. I enjoy discussions, but I get upset over squabbles, and sometimes, with just text, it's hard to tell the difference. If you want to discuss, then discuss, no matter how irritable you sound. I'm just trying not to step on any toes, since I'm relatively new here still.

BTW, I hear you on that cold thing. I'm just getting over a mother of a virus myself. And schoolwork? Don't get me started.

[Tyraelis]

Seniority doesn't make much of a splash, except when it comes to choosing moderators. If you've got reasoning and proper grammar, then you can be very influencial.

EDIT1: If you've got a cold, take some Vitamin C, man. I'm in college, and I have plenty to do... making it fun.

EDIT2: To Kitetsu-
Don't worry, I just happen to have a scientific-oriented brain, and the biology that I took last year happens to still hang around as I hang onto my notes.

[Flashpoint Gold]

That sucks! I don't have a cold, but I have a nasty cough. I cough around three times in a time period of about five seconds. It gets in the way alot around writing and playing something. I had some pretty bad cold or something last week during the mornings. Either all or most of it is allergies, they come in around now. It used to be that every time around Fall I would get sick every day. So getting sick doesn't bother me much.

I have a scientific oriented brain too. Science stuff seems to just stick into my brain and not want to come out. I probably could hit my head hard on my wall for one straight hour and I may not remember anything else, but I would remember scientific things.

Maybe I should test that! :ducktosssplode:
If you hear on the news or something that someone has beat there head till they can't remember anything, then it is probably me! :wink:

Arsenic has already said what I was going to say.

[Xloous]

Well. First post. Here goes nothing.

Nanotechnology could be very possible. The Borg could assimilate any species in the entire Star Trek galaxy in a matter of minutes (of course, that's considering if you had 400+ years of science) but imagine what would happen if we could have nanoprobes at our disposals!

Even if it would be years off, think of what it could do. You could engineer a complete virus capable of re-organizing human DNA in a short time. You could also use this to generate the certain features that you would need/like in your life. You could generate the enzyme wolves have in their saliva (capable of killing germs very efficently) and cutting down in dental bills (just one of my stupid ideas), or you could do something as stupid as having a tail.

Who says that technology could be limited to just simply wolves? Imagine the possibilities you could do. This is not to say there could be a really, really, dark side. How horrifying would it be to have a wolf transform into a human? would it be capable of learning as we do? Processing thoughts, gaining advanced knowledge?

Even if Nanotechnology fails, there was an interesting article, http://travel.howstuffworks.com/teleportation.htm, that states that teleportation could teleport you from place to place, instead of using your current body, a computer would create a new one for you, with a supercomputer retaining all your memories. You could easily change the nucleotide sequece, and arrange what you want in a pain-free transformation.

"This is all crap, unless it works for you."
- My awesome World Literature Teacher.

[Luke_Ragnarok]

Normally I'd jump in on this subject, but....I think my opinion has been expressed. ^^;;

[Tyraelis]

At this point, opinions are merely being restated.

I think this thread's been beaten to death... time to call on people to be creative and original and make a new subject matter in a new thread. I don't think this thread needs to be closed, but it should not be really subject to posting unless there is a breakthrough that we must hear about.

[Flashpoint Gold]

Originally posted by Tyraelis@Oct 21 2005, 05:22 AM
At this point, opinions are merely being restated.

I think this thread's been beaten to death... time to call on people to be creative and original and make a new subject matter in a new thread.* I don't think this thread needs to be closed, but it should not be really subject to posting unless there is a breakthrough that we must hear about.

960



Yeah, I agree!

[Arsenic]

One wee thing about genetic engeneering that came to my attention recently:

Cells are quite capable of repairing it's own DNA, someone who had had his DNA successfully changed would find that it would ( at least partially ) return to it's origional state.

Secondly ( okay okay two wee things ) there is the matter of the immune system, white bloodcells are quite resistant to virusses and genetic change. If the genetic structure of body changed chanses are the immune system would recognize a lot of tissues and organs as foriegn bodies and will attack them, quickly killing the individual.

[Tyraelis]

Good point, and I can help by contributing some information as well.

Cells repair their mutations in their DNA different ways depending on the mutation. For instance, in the case of mismatched nucleotides, it's relatively fast, with the DNA fixing it quickly (otherwise the DNA chain is noticably broken). There are also four other kinds of chromosome mutations, which are not corrected by the cell itself:
1. Deletion, where a fragment of a chromosome is misplaced/displaced, where the RNA transcription and translation are totally thrown off, creating misshapen proteins.
2. Duplication- one chromosome fragment is attached to its neighbor in prophase (http://biology.about.com/library/weekly/aa072700a.htm) or metaphase (http://biology.about.com/library/weekly/aa080300a.htm) in the same location.
3. Inversion- one segment of a chromosome is reattached in the same location, just turned around; this is the least damaging, as a full segment of exons will simply be expressed as the same protein in the opposite direction.
4. Translocation- a part of a chromosome is attached to a completely separate chromosome in a random location.

Generally, these mutated cells, if they manage to replicate, usually die out quickly, as the protein that might be essentially needed can no longer be produced (at other times, it turns into a cancerous cell). So if someone were to alter their own DNA, it would have to be altered so the cells could survive and cooperate with their other cells and continue maintaining bodily conditions.

White bloodcells are actually complex, and diverse. There are basic ones which are responding for humoral immunity (generalized skin wounds, anything visibly damaged), which are released through histamines dilating the lymph vessels and releasing blood and these Macrophages to consume and break down any foreign material (the dead remains of these are the pus that one finds in zits and in infected injuries).
In the cases of bacterial infections, infected cells will produce antigens coded to alert Neutrophyls, monocytes, and natural killer cells (their common name, honest), to destroy infected cells, as well as breaking down viruses and bacteria. In the case of genetic change, it is the protein markers in the cell membrane that give indicators to cells as to if the cell is natural or foreign (which is the main reason behind really selective organ donors).

If you want a huge resource, go here (http://uhaweb.hartford.edu/BUGL/immune.htm).

[unl337]

I don't know much, but if this was offered I'd take it!

[neoritter]

i think we are all missing some key issues here,
one: someone stated using a virus to infect mass amts of ppl; this is morally wrong and sounds like something out of a kids tv show. If the a virus was to be created it would have to only be injected into willing candidates.

two: with a change in species there comes a significant problem of discrimination, by society and the government, if you are a walking, talking, bipedal, half-wolf, half-man, person are you still human? Are you still protected under the Constitution? Canada has already made a law where altering genetic makeup in humans and animals is illegal.

three: there are already pigs with human blood vessels running through them, goats and sheep with partially human organs, and mice with a brain that is part human (i think 2% or .2% of the brain cells are human)

four: this is a bit of a leap, but making half human animals could mean Armageddon, as in the Bible, I recently saw a show that had a very interesting interpretation of the prophecy that the beast will walk among us during the end of days. The common interpretation is that the beast is Satan, but this show interpreted it as saying that human animals will come into existance, and begin to spread themselves throughout the earth. So this could spark some major religious back lash if ti were to happen.

For those fo you who might want to watch this the show is called "Devil Lady". If you watch it note that the conclusion that it refers to the apocalypse is at the end of the series.

[kitetsu]

Originally posted by neoritter@Nov 8 2005, 09:13 PM
i think we are all missing some key issues here,
one: someone stated using a virus to infect mass amts of ppl; this is morally wrong and sounds like something out of a kids tv show. If the a virus was to be created it would have to only be injected into willing candidates.

two: with a change in species there comes a significant problem of discrimination, by society and the government, if you are a walking, talking, bipedal, half-wolf, half-man, person are you still human? Are you still protected under the Constitution? Canada has already made a law where altering genetic makeup in humans and animals is illegal.

three: there are already pigs with human blood vessels running through them, goats and sheep with partially human organs, and mice with a brain that is part human (i think 2% or .2% of the brain cells are human)

four: this is a bit of a leap, but making half human animals could mean Armageddon, as in the Bible, I recently saw a show that had a very interesting interpretation of the prophecy that the beast will walk among us during the end of days.* The common interpretation is that the beast is Satan, but this show interpreted it as saying that human animals will come into existance, and begin to spread themselves throughout the earth. So this could spark some major religious back lash if ti were to happen.

For those fo you who might want to watch this the show is called "Devil Lady". If you watch it note that the conclusion that it refers to the apocalypse is at the end of the series.

1567



All of those statements there.

Those're EXACTLY the references i need to make my werewolf story all the more controversial.

[SSJ_Vash]

Originally posted by neoritter@Nov 9 2005, 12:13 AM
i think we are all missing some key issues here,
one: someone stated using a virus to infect mass amts of ppl; this is morally wrong and sounds like something out of a kids tv show. If the a virus was to be created it would have to only be injected into willing candidates.

two: with a change in species there comes a significant problem of discrimination, by society and the government, if you are a walking, talking, bipedal, half-wolf, half-man, person are you still human? Are you still protected under the Constitution? Canada has already made a law where altering genetic makeup in humans and animals is illegal.

three: there are already pigs with human blood vessels running through them, goats and sheep with partially human organs, and mice with a brain that is part human (i think 2% or .2% of the brain cells are human)

four: this is a bit of a leap, but making half human animals could mean Armageddon, as in the Bible, I recently saw a show that had a very interesting interpretation of the prophecy that the beast will walk among us during the end of days.* The common interpretation is that the beast is Satan, but this show interpreted it as saying that human animals will come into existance, and begin to spread themselves throughout the earth. So this could spark some major religious back lash if ti were to happen.

For those fo you who might want to watch this the show is called "Devil Lady". If you watch it note that the conclusion that it refers to the apocalypse is at the end of the series.

1567


I agree with that on most points, especially the "will they be protected by the constitution?" I don't think they would? WE as americans would probably do the same horrrifc thing we did to the Native Americans who were different. Damn moronic biggitry. Just by the person not on the apperance.

[kitetsu]

There would also be "advantage takers", mind you -- There's this one article i saw a few days back about an australian lady who conned people saying that she was a hurricane Katrina survivor.

[Leo]

Originally posted by neoritter@Nov 9 2005, 05:13 AM
The common interpretation is that the beast is Satan, but this show interpreted it as saying that human animals will come into existance, and begin to spread themselves throughout the earth. So this could spark some major religious back lash if ti were to happen.

1567


Thistook my attention..., so this would be the reason why "werewolf" the rol game has the "apocalypse" theme on it? :wtf: . I don't play any rol, so I just wanted to know.

[neoritter]

Originally posted by SSJ_Vash@Nov 9 2005, 07:31 AM
I agree with that on most points, especially the "will they be protected by the constitution?" I don't think they would? WE as americans would probably do the same horrrifc thing we did to the Native Americans who were different. Damn moronic biggitry. Just by the person not on the apperance.

1577

but there is a difference between treating native americans like that and half human animals, the native americans are exactly the same genetics wise to the colonists. The human animals would not, on a biological level they would be different, spiritually they could be the same, but if God is real, would clones and these human animals really have a soul? The whole debate is a tough one and scientist working on these sorts of projects must grapple with the moral dilemma that is put in front of them.

In response to Leo's last post, that may very well be why, also note that wolves were considered the Satan's minions during the dark ages and up.

[SSJ_Vash]

Originally posted by neoritter@Nov 9 2005, 02:49 PM
but there is a difference between treating native americans like that and half human animals, the native americans are exactly the same genetics wise to the colonists.* The human animals would not, on a biological level they would be different, spiritually they could be the same, but if God is real, would clones and these human animals really have a soul?* The whole debate is a tough one and scientist working on these sorts of projects must grapple with the moral dilemma that is put in front of them.

In response to Leo's last post, that may very well be why, also note that wolves were considered the Satan's minions during the dark ages and up.

1593

That is a good point as well

[neoritter]

i liked this topic so in hopes of keeping it alive, lets talk silver.
Could a werewolf really be affected by it?
Sounds plausible, and rather than give my reasons state yours for or against.

[anarchy]

as human are allergic to arsenic, werewolves could be allergic to silver, but i don't know why it is silver specifically, such i dunno eighter why the human are allergic to arsenic.

[neoritter]

so anarchy thinks it might be biological or chemical, anyone go for maybe the holy properties of silver supposedly?

[anarchy]

i don't agree with the idea of the «holy properties of silver» because i don't really have any religion

[nikoman64]

No, I don't believe in the holy version either.

[neoritter]

heh, no mystics out there then.

[nikoman64]

Nope, not so far...

[Night Wolf]

Even being christian, how can anyone believe in ''Holy Water''? :eyebrow:

[kitetsu]

the only logical way to create "Holy Water" is to have a cocktail of colorless and corossive acids. Unless heaven and hell really exists, it'd be a lost cause to cry foul that "Holy water" can only be used as a "nickname".

[neoritter]

Originally posted by Night Wolf@Dec 13 2005, 07:12 AM
Even being christian, how can anyone believe in ''Holy Water''?* :eyebrow:

4095

i am pretty sure true christians believe it, when they are baptised they are baptised in holy water, when they drink the blood of Christ it is mixed with holy water, and when they enter and exit the church for mass, they bless themselves in holy water in the shaper of a chross on their forhead.
and kitetsu, it aint holy water unless its h2o and its been blessed by a priest.

[kitetsu]

i'm talking about the part where you use holy water against "vampires".

[Night Wolf]

Originally posted by neoritter@Dec 14 2005, 12:48 AM
i am pretty sure true christians believe it, when they are baptised they are baptised in holy water, when they drink the blood of Christ it is mixed with holy water, and when they enter and exit the church for mass, they bless themselves in holy water in the shaper of a chross on their forhead.
and kitetsu, it aint holy water unless its h2o and its been blessed by a priest.

4163

I'm protestant (is that right?) and there isn't all that stuff about that. For me, it's just water. If blessing water would make it holy, I'll bless my money and have holy money :laugh:

[neoritter]

only a priest can bless something and make it holy.

[Lycanthropy]

I'll need a priest to bless me then.

[Lone wolf]

Priests are hacks! Druids are the shizniz!

[adam_nihilus]

Originally posted by neoritter@Dec 13 2005, 10:48 PM
i am pretty sure true christians believe it, when they are baptised they are baptised in holy water, when they drink the blood of Christ it is mixed with holy water, and when they enter and exit the church for mass, they bless themselves in holy water in the shaper of a chross on their forhead.

4163


I beg to differ, I'm christian and I don't believe in all that "holy water" nonsense. Christ did it for me, not some water from the bathroom sink.

And in response to the above poster: You do know they burned people alive in wicker cages, don't you?

[neoritter]

If you are a devout christian I don't see why not. Priests use holy water in exorcisms. It obviously has some effect on the possessed. And whether or not you believe it or not doesn't mean everyone else doesn't either. I can't really push too far with this because people have different beliefs, but holy water is special and generally held in some form of esteem as being better than just plain water.

[Were Dono]

Originally posted by neoritter@Jul 28 2006, 11:51 PM
If you are a devout christian I don't see why not. Priests use holy water in exorcisms. It obviously has some effect on the possessed. And whether or not you believe it or not doesn't mean everyone else doesn't either. I can't really push too far with this because people have different beliefs, but holy water is special and generally held in some form of esteem as being better than just plain water.

20637


Here's the question though.
Have you ever actully seen a exorcism?
I, for one, think it's a load of bullshit.

I would, however, change my mind if I seen one.
Like most people would.

[Luke_Ragnarok]

Originally posted by Were Dono@Jul 29 2006, 04:44 PM
Here's the question though.
Have you ever actully seen a exorcism?
I, for one, think it's a load of bullshit.

20711

It is as far as I can tell.

[neoritter]

Originally posted by Were Dono@Jul 29 2006, 05:44 PM
Here's the question though.
Have you ever actully seen a exorcism?
I, for one, think it's a load of bullshit.

I would, however, change my mind if I seen one.
Like most people would.

20711


I actually have. You know the feeling you get when you watch movies like Poltergeist or Exorcism. Maginify that 3 fold. Its very chilling. And yes I know the arguments that a possessed person has psychosis or something like that but from what I've read its a just a theory at this point. I still look at the experience objectively but its hard not to believe that its real.

[Zenislev]

Originally posted by neoritter@Jul 30 2006, 12:03 AM
I actually have. You know the feeling you get when you watch movies like Poltergeist or Exorcism. Maginify that 3 fold. Its very chilling. And yes I know the arguments that a possessed person has psychosis or something like that but from what I've read its a just a theory at this point. I still look at the experience objectively but its hard not to believe that its real.

20746


Look...buddy...I don't know about you, but The Excorcist bored me to tears. I've fallen asleep three times out of the four times I've seen it. Then there's the issue where I've actually had people try to perform an excorcism on me. Apparently, I was the devil and didn't even know it. It turns out, however, that not only did the holy water and prayers not phase me, but I just walked away from the whole deal with a weird story to tell the rest of my life, and a firm belief, from first hand experience, that demons, should they exist, have no fucking interest in people. Why would they? If they can take over and occupy human beings, what would they want with Joe, the chicken fucker? Why wouldn't they go straight for the higher-ups of our world, and call it a day? Here's why: that solution involves reason, and reason is the enemy of faith. If you believe that demons want your soul and body, go for it. I say that we're simply not important enough to warrant that kind of attention, and therefore, anyone claiming to be possessed is an idiot, diseased in the brain, or incredibly susceptible to suggestion.

[neoritter]

All I know is that the little ten year old girl cracked a oak bed post. And was saying some freaky shit.

BTW - A Catholic priest is not allowed to perform a exorcism unless the possessed person consents to it. Whoever tried to perform an exorcism on you probably didn't know what in the hell they were doing.

[Zenislev]

Originally posted by neoritter@Jul 30 2006, 02:58 AM
All I know is that the little ten year old girl cracked a oak bed post. And was saying some freaky shit.

20773


Whoopie. There are people who can throw sewing needles through plate glass. It's not that extraordinary. Not to mention, all wood has natural fault lines in it, then there's the issue of people babbling anyway. That whole holy spirit thing? Where people dance about and babble? Yeah, totally different circumstance, sounds the same. Now, if she were to say, without reading the bible or any sort of religious scriptures, that she had a dream where she was in Japan, but it was under water, I'd lend it some believability. If she could tell me the significance of the terms "Yeshua" and "Zohar" (again, without research or coming up in a household full of that stuff or anything), I'd be impressed. Really, I'd be impressed if she was devoutly religious and could tell me who Azrael was without needing to look it up.

The deal with excorcims is that they are, much like the stories and shit that comes with them, entirely faith based. If you genuinely apply reason to it, you'll most likely reach the same conclusion I have. Beings on other planes of existance wouldn't give a shit. Especially not when it concerns some 10 year old kid. Yeah, that's a real catch. A 10 year old. It just doesn't make any sense for something with the ability to inhabit the human form and control it to go after these piddly little nobodies who live in west-butt fuck-nowhere (general term for small town USA. Friend of mine, who's name I used in the RP as an NPC came up with it. Like it? I do. I think it fits. Anyway, no more on that tangent.). I mean, seriously, would you go after little suzy in small-town USA, or would you pick someone slightly more influential? Hell, just pick a guy with a button that launches a nuke, then vacate. Why hasn't this been done by these evil, evil demons? Because it requires reason, and reason is the enemy of faith.

[neoritter]

If their purpose is to get people's souls then there is plenty logic behind it. I don't think you have any insight into what beings of higher power or from a different plane want, need, or think. Anymore than I do. Your reasoning sounds right, but thats assuming what those "beings" want.
Let me put this in a religious light with the same reasoning applied. "Little Suzy" is a devout Catholic, that follows all the rules, etc. Now these demons want to gain all the human souls they can get. So, why not go after the guy with the finger on a trigger for a nuke? Maybe the guy is already going to hell. So why waste time on him? Maybe if they make him launch the nuke it'll kill everyone. Well guess what. All those people going to heaven will go to heaven and all those going to hell will go to hell. Maybe they figure they can get more souls in the long run if they possess pious people? Big bad demon wants Little Suzy to blaspheme and reject Christ and God. So that way he can torture her for eterntity. Keep it in context and its plenty logical.

Now, when I say the girl was "saying freaky shit" I don't mean babbling. I mean speaking fluently in a language she's never encountered outside of when a snippet was used during mass.

[Zenislev]

Originally posted by neoritter@Jul 30 2006, 03:26 AM
If their purpose is to get people's souls then there is plenty logic behind it. I don't think you have any insight into what beings of higher power or from a different plane want, need, or think. Anymore than I do. Your reasoning sounds right, but thats assuming what those "beings" want.
Let me put this in a religious light with the same reasoning applied. "Little* Suzy" is a devout Catholic, that follows all the rules, etc. Now these demons want to gain all the human souls they can get. So, why not go after the guy with the finger on a trigger for a nuke? Maybe the guy is already going to hell. So why waste time on him? Maybe if they make him launch the nuke it'll kill everyone. Well guess what. All those people going to heaven will go to heaven and all those going to hell will go to hell. Maybe they figure they can get more souls in the long run if they possess pious people? Big bad demon wants Little Suzy to blaspheme and reject Christ and God. So that way he can torture her for eterntity. Keep it in context and its plenty logical.

Now, when I say the girl was "saying freaky shit" I don't mean babbling. I mean speaking fluently in a language she's never encountered outside of when a snippet was used during mass.

20777


The problem is that there's no reason for them to bother with actively harvesting souls, even in context. Enough people are going to damn themselves, and if Little Suzy is possessed, I'm pretty sure she gets bonus points when she dies for not really being in control the whole time. I mean, sending someone to hell for being possessed (especially since every religion makes people out to be weak-minded and fickle. I can agree on that) seems kind of stupid. Then again, so does being kicked out of Eden for wanting to be on top for once (Lilith), as well as being demoted to angel of death (read, book keeper. Azrael caught this one. Literally. He writes down and erases names) for following orders (If you're not familiar with this bit, which I don't believe you are, here: He and three other angels were sent to fetch sand to make Adam. When they got there, the earth said not to take the sand. The other three went back empty handed, Azrael told the earth to take it up with god, got the sand, brought it back, and got told that he was wrong for doing as he was commanded.) So, I suppose that once again, reason just plain doesn't hold a candle to the faith part. Seriously, with our world today, why bother looking for people to drag to hell? We do that just fine, and in mass quantities. Look at the south. Seriously look at it. If you think more than a quarter of those people are going to heaven (should it exist, I don't profess to know), you're insane. Ask yourself, in all honesty, how many people can take the time out of just surviving from day to day to practice their religion as it's written. That's a ticket to hell right there. There's no need to search. And, again, ultimately, who fucking cares if little suzy blasphemes and rejects christ and all that? You just need to break it down and apply common sense to it.

Lucifer, for all intensive purposes, is God's rebellious son. They had themselves a little family spat a few millenia ago, and have been at odds since. However, there's just no spite left in "tricking" people out of their religion. What with the sheer number of converts and cults out there, it doesn't matter. And, if only one religion is right, that leaves the majority of the world firmly in the grasp of good 'ol Lou. Little Suzy in west-butt fuck-nowhere is inconsequential. Why bother with her when the rest of the world is ripe for the picking, and pretty much screwed anyway? I mean, every religion preaches that it's the right one, and all others just plain aren't. There you have it. Even in context, no one gives a shit about these faceless, nameless people who claim to be possessed. As for her speaking fluently, I doubt it. I can babble at someone in the same tone and cadence as let's say...Finnish. It'll sound like finnish to someone who's only heard it a few times, or if I scream it and what not. You might even make out a few words. Will it be Finnish? Fuck, no. I don't speak Finnish.

[Were Dono]

Originally posted by neoritter@Jul 30 2006, 02:26 AM
Now, when I say the girl was "saying freaky shit" I don't mean babbling. I mean speaking fluently in a language she's never encountered outside of when a snippet was used during mass.

20777


...That's just wayyy to similar to that damn movie.
Exorsist. Or whatever.

[neoritter]

Originally posted by Were Dono@Jul 30 2006, 04:47 AM
...That's just wayyy to similar to that damn movie.
Exorsist. Or whatever.

20780

The things they do in the Exorcist are based off of real procedure. Don't think its fake because its similar to the movie. Its the other way around. The movie is similar to the real thing.

[neoritter]

Originally posted by Zenislev@Jul 30 2006, 04:45 AM
The problem is that there's no reason for them to bother with actively harvesting souls, even in context. Enough people are going to damn themselves, and if Little Suzy is possessed, I'm pretty sure she gets bonus points when she dies for not really being in control the whole time. I mean, sending someone to hell for being possessed (especially since every religion makes people out to be weak-minded and fickle. I can agree on that) seems kind of stupid. Then again, so does being kicked out of Eden for wanting to be on top for once (Lilith), as well as being demoted to angel of death (read, book keeper. Azrael caught this one. Literally. He writes down and erases names) for following orders (If you're not familiar with this bit, which I don't believe you are, here: He and three other angels were sent to fetch sand to make Adam. When they got there, the earth said not to take the sand. The other three went back empty handed, Azrael told the earth to take it up with god, got the sand, brought it back, and got told that he was wrong for doing as he was commanded.) So, I suppose that once again, reason just plain doesn't hold a candle to the faith part. Seriously, with our world today, why bother looking for people to drag to hell? We do that just fine, and in mass quantities. Look at the south. Seriously look at it. If you think more than a quarter of those people are going to heaven (should it exist, I don't profess to know), you're insane. Ask yourself, in all honesty, how many people can take the time out of just surviving from day to day to practice their religion as it's written. That's a ticket to hell right there. There's no need to search. And, again, ultimately, who fucking cares if little suzy blasphemes and rejects christ and all that? You just need to break it down and apply common sense to it.

Lucifer, for all intensive purposes, is God's rebellious son. They had themselves a little family spat a few millenia ago, and have been at odds since. However, there's just no spite left in "tricking" people out of their religion. What with the sheer number of converts and cults out there, it doesn't matter. And, if only one religion is right, that leaves the majority of the world firmly in the grasp of good 'ol Lou. Little Suzy in west-butt fuck-nowhere is inconsequential. Why bother with her when the rest of the world is ripe for the picking, and pretty much screwed anyway? I mean, every religion preaches that it's the right one, and all others just plain aren't. There you have it. Even in context, no one gives a shit about these faceless, nameless people who claim to be possessed. As for her speaking fluently, I doubt it. I can babble at someone in the same tone and cadence as let's say...Finnish. It'll sound like finnish to someone who's only heard it a few times, or if I scream it and what not. You might even make out a few words. Will it be Finnish? Fuck, no. I don't speak Finnish.

20779

Your blowing things our of context. And repetitive as well.

[Were Dono]

Eh, it makes sence to me.
Though, I still don't beleive in posession and what not.

They want all the souls they want, right?
Why waste their time on some small girl?
As he said, she's get points from being posessed.
Atleast, she should.
That'd be fucked up if she didnt.
Unless she wanted to be posessed and did some kind of ritual to call it into her
Which is highly unlikely.

[neoritter]

Humans have free will. Part of the exorcism is wanting the demon cast out. Thats why a priest must have consent by the possessed to perform the exorcism. Also some people in a sense do ask to be possessed. Some people have become possessed because of using Weji boards, and psychic crystals (or whatever their called). Basically by doing things that open doors, however small, into the places spirits and such dwell one can be possessed. Or at least thats how the story goes.

[Zenislev]

Originally posted by neoritter@Jul 30 2006, 11:36 PM
Humans have free will. Part of the exorcism is wanting the demon cast out. Thats why a priest must have consent by the possessed to perform the exorcism. Also some people in a sense do ask to be possessed. Some people have become possessed because of using Weji boards, and psychic crystals (or whatever their called). Basically by doing things that open doors, however small, into the places spirits and such dwell one can be possessed. Or at least thats how the story goes.

20860


Let me tell you something about "psychic" crystals and Ouiji boards: Also bullshit. The psychic crystals that most mystics use are nothing more than quartz. Quartz, dude. You can't seriously be suggesting that demons invade people through fucking quartz. As for the Ouiji boards, simple physics tells you that the thing is going to move. Your hand is on a tether: your arm. It has it's own weight. When you rest your hands on the little pointer, there's a slight pull on it. When people feel this pull on the other side, they hold their hands up a little more, allowing it to move. It's a board game and parlor trick all in one. Demons are totally taking over people through that. What's next, man? Magic cards? Your faith is crippling you again.

[neoritter]

What faith? I'm just stating what I've read and heard. Do you people realize I'm agnostic? Geez. And crippling? Thats a little overdramatic don't you think?
We're talking about demons and possession, etc. So I'm talking in context. Reasoning with the truths used in the religion. Instead of judging people and/or a religion from my perspective, doing it from theirs. All I've really said was that its hard for me to disprove that exorcisms are not since I was present for one. You've given me the first couple of questions I've already asked and easily thrown out.

[Zenislev]

Originally posted by neoritter@Jul 31 2006, 09:39 AM
What faith? I'm just stating what I've read and heard. Do you people realize I'm agnostic? Geez. And crippling? Thats a little overdramatic don't you think?
We're talking about demons and possession, etc. So I'm talking in context. Reasoning with the truths used in the religion. Instead of judging people and/or a religion from my perspective, doing it from theirs. All I've really said was that its hard for me to disprove that exorcisms are not since I was present for one. You've given me the first couple of questions I've already asked and easily thrown out.

20897


Sure you are.

Anyway, I had one performed on me. I can tell you, from being the one on whom the holy water was splashed, it's bullshit. As for crippling, no, not at all. Humanity as a whole allows the current sets of beliefs to cripple the development and progression of our species. "God" has effectively broken our legs with his/her bat made of nonsense.

[neoritter]

I beg to differ. During the middle ages the churches were centers of learning. And really in todays world with all the secular institutions around, I think religion isn't really holding back science and further discovery.

As for the holy water. Whether or not it works, the fact that it didn't affect you doesn't mean its bullshit. Were you actually possessed? From what I've gathered you weren't. So the holy water shouldn't have any real affect on you. C'mon Zen I thought you were smarter than that. ;)

[Zenislev]

Originally posted by neoritter@Jul 31 2006, 11:42 PM
I beg to differ. During the middle ages the churches were centers of learning. And really in todays world with all the secular institutions around, I think religion isn't really holding back science and further discovery.

As for the holy water. Whether or not it works, the fact that it didn't affect you doesn't mean its bullshit. Were you actually possessed? From what I've gathered you weren't. So the holy water shouldn't have any real affect on you. C'mon Zen I thought you were smarter than that. ;)

20963


Oh, and I suppose stem-cell research (conducted using base biological material that would otherwise just remain frozen, and eventually thrown out) is being halted by a lack of interest?

Anyway, that's precisely it. They all seemed to think I was possessed. They wanted to do an excorcism. I said "Why not?" and went with it. A few chants and some water in my face later, I was a little moist. If it didn't work on someone they were so sure was possessed, that's reason enough to call "bullshit".

[neoritter]

Scientist must consider the ethical and moral ramifications of their research even if they are part of a secular institution.

You weren't possessed so the holy water would make you wet just like you said. People can make mistakes. That doesnt mean something is BS.

[kitetsu]

Originally posted by neoritter@Jul 31 2006, 09:25 PM
Scientist must consider the ethical and moral ramifications of their research even if they are part of a secular institution.
20985



So you would let more people die from diseases for the sake of maintaining moral and ethical values by forbidding a key of hope that's right under our noses?

I'm sorry, but though this has very little to do with my concession with Zen, this is a somewhat offensive, if not very insulting remark to someone who values life as it is rather than moral.

[Caine]

Wow. This thread sure has deviated, lol.

Please Continue.

[neoritter]

Originally posted by kitetsu@Aug 4 2006, 02:44 AM
So you would let more people die from diseases for the sake of maintaining moral and ethical values by forbidding a key of hope that's right under our noses?

I'm sorry, but though this has very little to do with my concession with Zen, this is a somewhat offensive, if not very insulting remark to someone who values life as it is rather than moral.

21236

I never said that. Let me rewrite what I said. Scientist must consider the ethical and moral ramifications of their research.
Example: Nuclear power. What do we have as a result? Nuclear powerplants a more efficient way to get energy. And Nuclear weaponry, a way to kill mass amounts of people with the push of the button. Scientists have to weigh the positive and negative affects caused by their research and decide if they should really proceed.

Another example is genetic research. It is feared that people could use the knowledge that we've gained by mapping out the human genome to create perfect looking babies, aesthetically pleasing children. While technically a bad thing it is surely immoral.

[Zenislev]

Originally posted by neoritter@Aug 4 2006, 02:19 AM
I never said that. Let me rewrite what I said. Scientist must consider the ethical and moral ramifications of their research.
Example: Nuclear power. What do we have as a result? Nuclear powerplants a more efficient way to get energy. And Nuclear weaponry, a way to kill mass amounts of people with the push of the button. Scientists have to weigh the positive and negative affects caused by their research and decide if they should really proceed.

Another example is genetic research. It is feared that people could use the knowledge that we've gained by mapping out the human genome to create perfect looking babies, aesthetically pleasing children. While technically a bad thing it is surely immoral.

21238


Ok, in that case...throwing out those stem cells is more ethical than putting them to use, and allowing those same cells to live out normal life cycles inside a human body?

[neoritter]

I never said that. Personally I think if they are going to be thrown out anyway, we should use them. If we can get stemcells without harming another living thing then we should use them. Otherwise no. Please don't put words in my mouth. All I said again was: "Scientists must consider the ethical and moral ramifications of their research."

[TMB]

This thread looked good till it went here lol. But my belief on stems cells is untill we can actually clone them, we are going to have to use stem cells from natural ways, "harvest them" Just destroying unwanted ones is A) A waste of research B) Just hypocritic

As for the morality issue with human life, people die everday, everwhere. Your worried about the potential human, yet not worried whats happeing to people everywhere else in the world, Iraq, Afgahnistan, oh yeah and lets not forget my favorite: Africa.

Besides, morals really fall more in the relgious catageroy, and when it comes to science and relgion, its oil and water, they don't mix. Using stem cells would be no different from harvesting corn, cattle or any other living being.

[TMB]

Oh yeah, going back to werewolf science and sliver: Maybe it would be sliver is just like posion to them.

[Fox]

To say that change is impossible is untrue, but some change is impossible. However I do believe that the matter of achieving a Werewolf like body is possible, as for the method of achieving it would generally be described as impossible.

Nanotechnology at its prime would not only have tiny vessels to manipulate the body at its whim. It would also include platforms of such to control these individual beings, and store information as well as interface with vital organs such as the brain in microchips (for my purposes I do not care to list the rest). As for transforming the brain, you must consider that while our brain stores everything we know, our love, our hate, and our pain, we are nothing more then organic machines. In essence, the tiny bots would map our brain, storing our information, and remold our transformed brain to a best possible match, although it would never be exact. After finishing a "night out" the bots would remold the rest of the body and brain back to how it mapped it. Of coarse you wouldn't remember any of it, but it would be to grantee that you would be back to "normal".

When it comes to the rest of the transformation sure it would be painful but considering that the bots are destroying your brain too, I think you have bigger problems. The bones while are a problem could be manipulated into the right size although growing new bones would required the massively gigantic production of bone cells and simulation of said cells into producing bone.

If anything I don’t predict this happening considering the size of the bots and the cost if it could be done, not to mention the bots (if made) would be used to improve people's health and physical condition long before Sci-Fi freaks ever would get the chance.

The only other way would to be genetically mutate humans (and yes it would have to be humans since its "were"wolf) Evolution would have to take its coarse, but I cant I see a project lasting that long, and the being would be more wolf then human and wouldn’t be able to transform. (So basically its just a wolf, great... no even werewolf but whatever) Plus who wants to teach a baby werewolf not to eat humans?

~Fox

[Happygun]

Be glad I got to you before Zen did.


To say that change is impossible is untrue, but some change is impossible. However I do believe that the matter of achieving a Werewolf like body is possible, as for the method of achieving it would generally be described as impossible.

Nanotechnology at its prime would not only have tiny vessels to manipulate the body at its whim. It would also include platforms of such to control these individual beings, and store information as well as interface with vital organs such as the brain in microchips (for my purposes I do not care to list the rest). As for transforming the brain, you must consider that while our brain stores everything we know, our love, our hate, and our pain, we are nothing more then organic machines. In essence, the tiny bots would map our brain, storing our information, and remold our transformed brain to a best possible match, although it would never be exact. After finishing a "night out" the bots would remold the rest of the body and brain back to how it mapped it. Of coarse you wouldn't remember any of it, but it would be to grantee that you would be back to "normal".

When it comes to the rest of the transformation sure it would be painful but considering that the bots are destroying your brain too, I think you have bigger problems. The bones while are a problem could be manipulated into the right size although growing new bones would required the massively gigantic production of bone cells and simulation of said cells into producing bone.

If anything I don’t predict this happening considering the size of the bots and the cost if it could be done, not to mention the bots (if made) would be used to improve people's health and physical condition long before Sci-Fi freaks ever would get the chance.
Like so many others before you, you fail to recognize one critical detail: the first law of thermodynamics. Where is the matter for the extra body mass going to come from? Hammerspace? Even if you argue that body mass is preserved and that the nanomachines merely modify the werewolf's existing body, you're going to lose some energy/mass in the process due to entropy. And, as you observed, I doubt we'll be using that level of technology to recreate mythical beasts.

Ok, new rule. You can no longer argue that anything is possible with sufficiently advanced nanomachines. I'm going to call it 'Arthur C. Clark's fourth law.'


The only other way would to be genetically mutate humans (and yes it would have to be humans since its "were"wolf) Evolution would have to take its coarse, but I cant I see a project lasting that long, and the being would be more wolf then human and wouldn’t be able to transform. (So basically its just a wolf, great... no even werewolf but whatever) Plus who wants to teach a baby werewolf not to eat humans?
Ah, but then you wouldn't have a werewolf, would you? You'd have a human genetically engineered to look like a hybrid between a werewolf and a human (i.e., a *shudder* furry). A "werewolf" isn't just a fuzzy, wolf-like human, bro. By the way, you misspelled "course."

[Arsenic]

Why don't you just evade the whole mass storage problem by not changing the body mass of the person. I weigh 73 Kg and while the average wolf doesn't top 60 there have been specimens as heavy as 80 Kg.

This would make your wolf a big wolf but that isn't such a bad thing considering that it's easier to disguise a larger brain that way.

BTW Zen has had more than 2 months to get to Fox before you, something tells me you still had ample time before he would ( if at all ).

[Zenislev]

Why don't you just evade the whole mass storage problem by not changing the body mass of the person. I weigh 73 Kg and while the average wolf doesn't top 60 there have been specimens as heavy as 80 Kg.

This would make your wolf a big wolf but that isn't such a bad thing considering that it's easier to disguise a larger brain that way.

BTW Zen has had more than 2 months to get to Fox before you, something tells me you still had ample time before he would ( if at all ).

First: Because that still doesn't work. You'd have to dissolve and transfer materials existing in the body already at an alarming rate. The transfer alone would cause your blood to become septic, and you would die. Not to mention causing the parts that you syphon this stuff from not to function properly. Or, I could just say this: Shut up, shut up, shut up, shut up.

Second: This guy is so insignificant, it's not even funny. He's obviously fucking retarded. The fact that he would even bother to post what he posted means he's just plain not worth the effort. I've essentially already beaten him before he even took a swing.

[neoritter]

Besides, morals really fall more in the relgious catageroy, and when it comes to science and relgion, its oil and water, they don't mix. Using stem cells would be no different from harvesting corn, cattle or any other living being.

I know its been two months but what the hey. Might as well say something to this...

Morals can have as little to do with religion as evolution (or so many people assume, another topic). Its morally wrong to steal something and laws have been made for that well before religion came into any part of it. And religion and science can mix. People are just too stupid sometimes to realize that. I don't think for a minute that science can trump religion and vice versa completely.

[Arsenic]

Or, I could just say this: Shut up, shut up, shut up, shut up.

:)

You're right, you would need some fundemental changes to the metabolism and other parts of the werewolf's human side. Probably to the extent that you can hardly consider them human anymore. It would also be advisable to make the whole process a lot slower than is usually portrayed in literature, that way you would decrease the amount of amino acids, shugars and other junk flowing through there system at any given time.
Your system has quite a few stores of building materials, otherwise we would never be capable of surviving as long as you can without food.

TBC

[Arsenic]

A wee idea that popped up in my mind:

Why not use the intercellular space to take the load off the arteries?

A wolf's ( or that of any mammal ) anatomical layout is not that dissimilar from our own meaning that most of the materials that you would need wouldn't have to travel far. You also don't need to change most internal organs much and you can miss a surprising amount of internal organs. If you kept the transformation time under 12 hours you could go through the whole process with all internal organs ( those within your chest- and abdominal cavity ) pretty much shut down save for your heart and lungs. Your digestive tract could not provide energy fast enough anyway and could be stressed out by the load of stuff floating around in you as Zen pointed out so nicely.

The only organs that really need to change much are the bones and the muscles attached to them. There lies a clinch, the chalk salts that make up most of the hard bits of your bone are lifeless, it is created by the cells inbetween but this is a relatively slow process. The remolding of the bones would leave the creature relatively weak for extended amounts of time. It's bones could be called 'bendy' at this stage and would buckle under the stress of standing.


Another example is genetic research. It is feared that people could use the knowledge that we've gained by mapping out the human genome to create perfect looking babies, aesthetically pleasing children. While technically a bad thing it is surely immoral.

Why, my dear neo, would genetic enhancement be bad and immoral? A genetically superior person would have a longer and happier life.

[neoritter]

Why, my dear neo, would genetic enhancement be bad and immoral? A genetically superior person would have a longer and happier life.

Wouldn't work. Or rather wouuldn't matter. Many mental disorders would still pop up as disease. The Nazi eugenics program figured that out for us.

Anywho, basically the way you have as possible for a werewolf transformation would be more of a one way thing. Full moon out of the question so to speak. Changing back too. It'd be kind of a one way thing then. And then now we're talking about furry stuff.

[Arsenic]

The Eugenics practiced by the Nazis basically boiled down to selective breeding. To get any real effect you would need to keep it up for tens of generations.

[kitetsu]

Wouldn't work. Or rather wouuldn't matter. Many mental disorders would still pop up as disease. The Nazi eugenics program figured that out for us.

Anywho, basically the way you have as possible for a werewolf transformation would be more of a one way thing. Full moon out of the question so to speak. Changing back too. It'd be kind of a one way thing then. And then now we're talking about furry stuff.



...

Give me REAL proof of such a thing, unless you're backing it by cliche'd sci-fi/werewolf story that ends in people bubbling up and exploding from radiation.

[Kaiba W]

:howl: well, they have been able to clone a sheep "Doly" and able to make some fish glow, even glow in the dark tobacco. I just think that if they tried hard enough to fertalize a human egg with an animal, in this case "Wolf", to make a hybrid, half human, half wolf.

p.s. I might be young but has anybody else seen "Batman beyond" ?
I think they called it splicing, lizard guys and girls, bulls, cows, maybe wolf's too.

[neoritter]

The Eugenics practiced by the Nazis basically boiled down to selective breeding. To get any real effect you would need to keep it up for tens of generations.

I don't see how it would really matter considering some of these mental disorders develop during the person's life.


...

Give me REAL proof of such a thing, unless you're backing it by cliche'd sci-fi/werewolf story that ends in people bubbling up and exploding from radiation.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazi_eugenics

C'mon, kitetsu, saying I'm lying about this is like saying that the holocaust never happened.

[neoritter]

:howl: well, they have been able to clone a sheep "Doly" and able to make some fish glow, even glow in the dark tobacco. I just think that if they tried hard enough to fertalize a human egg with an animal, in this case "Wolf", to make a hybrid, half human, half wolf.

p.s. I might be young but has anybody else seen "Batman beyond" ?
I think they called it splicing, lizard guys and girls, bulls, cows, maybe wolf's too.

Cloning is a different matter. And the organisms they've done things like that to are less complex than humans. Not to mention that such a practice would be unethical.

[SilverBack Novelist]

Yes, that would be unethical. That would be like splicing Jeff Goldbloom and Jane Fonda! I don't know about you, but both of those people piss me off!
:angry:
I don't want to see a spliced version of them, do you? There's Goldbloom's bad acting and 'stupid-genius' character from Jarassic Park. Then, there's Jane Fonda's Anti-American shooting bragade.
A wolf-man wouldn't be very pretty either. It might look like that thing from the Harry Potter movie. You know the one. You can see it now, can't you? Awful thinking about it, isn't it? Here's a little reminder.
http://bpcity.hu/daily/hppoa/hppoa125_werewolf.jpg
There. Have I changed your mind about that splicing thing? Won't think of that again, will ya? Oh and just in case you're wondering, this is a splice of Goldbloom and Fonda would look like too.
PS. I apologize for showing that awful picture of the Harry Potter werewolf. That was a little harsh on my part, but it was the best way I could think of to get my point across.

[Happygun]

p.s. I might be young but has anybody else seen "Batman beyond" ?
I think they called it splicing, lizard guys and girls, bulls, cows, maybe wolf's too.
Speaking as a Biochemist, we're decades, probably centuries away from that level of genetic engineering. And we'll be well into our technological singularity (assuming we don't blow ourselves up) by the time we develop methods to alter adult humans to such a degree.

[z_wolf_59661]

My two cents:I think it would be very possible to make human/wolf crossbreeds with the level of science we have today or will have in a few years. If they can take the genes that make fireflies glow and put them in plants to make glowing plants, why not give a human a wolf's tail? It's a complicated process, but what it boils down to is this: search the DNA of a wolf for the genes you want, and put them in a human embryo. It may take a few years/generations, but eventually you will get a human with a wolf's tail. Then you step it up a bit: give a human a wolf's fur, teeth, senses, etc. until you have all the desired traits. Eventually, someone will find a way for such an individual to turn said genes on or off, alter their DNA at will, etc. Once this happens, we could possibly be seeing real werewolves in reality.In short, it's only a matter of time and ethics.

[Zenislev]

My two cents:I think it would be very possible to make human/wolf crossbreeds with the level of science we have today or will have in a few years. If they can take the genes that make fireflies glow and put them in plants to make glowing plants, why not give a human a wolf's tail? It's a complicated process, but what it boils down to is this: search the DNA of a wolf for the genes you want, and put them in a human embryo. It may take a few years/generations, but eventually you will get a human with a wolf's tail. Then you step it up a bit: give a human a wolf's fur, teeth, senses, etc. until you have all the desired traits. Eventually, someone will find a way for such an individual to turn said genes on or off, alter their DNA at will, etc. Once this happens, we could possibly be seeing real werewolves in reality.In short, it's only a matter of time and ethics. Oh, what the hell? You completely (and I do mean completely missed the big issue there: How would you develop this magical wolf-baby? In what would it grow(What with the sudden alteration of it's contents, the body it was in may very well just straight up reject it)? How are you so sure that the cell wouldn't just die before splitting? Do you even know how splicing works, or how far it's advanced since it's inception? On top of all that, what would be the fucking point of pouring that much time and money into something that serves absolutely no purpose? What would anyone have to gain from this? Not to mention that you would still need the god damned materials present in the body to facilitate the building of the actual, physical parts. Having the trait means nothing if you don't have the materials to make it manifest. Turning the gene on and off solves no problem. Please. For the sake of your own well-being, let this shit go. It's a fantasy creature, folks. Fantasy. There is no place for it in reality, there is no way for it to even work. What honestly amazes me is that the practicing biochemist tells you that we can't do it with our current technology, and it's straight-up ignored! Shitty jokes about movie stars, you pay attention to, but someone who has some standing on the matter gets glossed over. What the fuck is wrong with this picture? What the fuck is wrong with you? To the pansies and folks this doesn't pertain to: Feel free to ignore the entire post. It's not for you.

[Caine]

And the Zen strikes again. Anyone could have predicted this, lol. His history is well known!

[confidental]

Can't everyone just get along with each other? *Where is the love...*

[Silver Predator Wolf]

Good question... where is it?

[The wild one]

Good question... where is it?

probably chained up in some basement with a deranged gimp for company.

[neoritter]

Zen's pretty right about this though. Its an oddity that after a conclusion of sorts has been formed someone posts something that goes back to square one.

[The wild one]

Zen's pretty right about this though. Its an oddity that after a conclusion of sorts has been formed someone posts something that goes back to square one.

hmmmm....does that mean we should put this thread out of its misery then? (grabs a shotgun and loads a round) no point in letting a savagely maimed and crippled topic like this one drag itself around then, if that's the case.

[neoritter]

We could close it, or stay off the topic of genetic engineering here. I say we try to base what a real werewolf would be like (if real) and as realistic about it as possible. But we've already covered most this. So a close would not be a bad idea.

[z_wolf_59661]

Oh, what the hell? You completely (and I do mean completely missed the big issue there: How would you develop this magical wolf-baby? In what would it grow(What with the sudden alteration of it's contents, the body it was in may very well just straight up reject it)? How are you so sure that the cell wouldn't just die before splitting? Do you even know how splicing works, or how far it's advanced since it's inception? On top of all that, what would be the fucking point of pouring that much time and money into something that serves absolutely no purpose? What would anyone have to gain from this? Not to mention that you would still need the god damned materials present in the body to facilitate the building of the actual, physical parts. Having the trait means nothing if you don't have the materials to make it manifest. Turning the gene on and off solves no problem. Please. For the sake of your own well-being, let this shit go. It's a fantasy creature, folks. Fantasy. There is no place for it in reality, there is no way for it to even work. What honestly amazes me is that the practicing biochemist tells you that we can't do it with our current technology, and it's straight-up ignored! Shitty jokes about movie stars, you pay attention to, but someone who has some standing on the matter gets glossed over. What the fuck is wrong with this picture? What the fuck is wrong with you? To the pansies and folks this doesn't pertain to: Feel free to ignore the entire post. It's not for you.

You sound like my father. Not that that has anything to do with anything, but I can't help but notice that your attitude is so much like his: if it's not your idea, screw it. You say werewolves in reality is impossible, but you can't predict the future. None of us can, and I particularly don't claim to. I never did. All I can offer, however, is my beleifs about the future. It is up to you whether to accept or reject them. I don't care. All I ask is that you respect my opinions. If you do, great. If you don't, fine, but don't go putting me (or anyone else for that matter) down just because you think we're wrong.
Now that that's out of the way, let's go back to science. Science in our age is advancing very rapidly. Who know where it will lead us in ten or twenty years? And why spend that much time and money? Because we can. Because we want to. Because we felt like it. Because poeple are curious by nature and want to see what happens. Some one somewhere will find a way to make it work and they will. Maybe not tomorrow, mabye not next cenury, but eventually. Years ago, people like yourself said space travel was impossible. People thought there would never be a network of coumputers capable of uniting millions of people in seconds. Guess what? They were proved wrong, all of them. Maybe not in their lifetimes, but they were proved wrong. How? By rapidly advancing science and technology. We may not see real werewolves in our lives, but there will be someday.

[Were Dono]

You sound like my father. Not that that has anything to do with anything, but I can't help but notice that your attitude is so much like his: if it's not your idea, screw it. You say werewolves in reality is impossible, but you can't predict the future. None of us can, and I particularly don't claim to. I never did. All I can offer, however, is my beleifs about the future. It is up to you whether to accept or reject them. I don't care. All I ask is that you respect my opinions. If you do, great. If you don't, fine, but don't go putting me (or anyone else for that matter) down just because you think we're wrong.
Now that that's out of the way, let's go back to science. Science in our age is advancing very rapidly. Who know where it will lead us in ten or twenty years? And why spend that much time and money? Because we can. Because we want to. Because we felt like it. Because poeple are curious by nature and want to see what happens. Some one somewhere will find a way to make it work and they will. Maybe not tomorrow, mabye not next cenury, but eventually. Years ago, people like yourself said space travel was impossible. People thought there would never be a network of coumputers capable of uniting millions of people in seconds. Guess what? They were proved wrong, all of them. Maybe not in their lifetimes, but they were proved wrong. How? By rapidly advancing science and technology. We may not see real werewolves in our lives, but there will be someday.

You obviously haven't read any of the other arguments on this forum involving Zen, have you? Zen's not going to stop being Zen. And you're obviously not going to stop coming up with retarded ideas. You, sir, are obviously another person obsessed with something that just isn't real, probably to get out of the shitty reality you have now. Probably. It's not healthy.

[Zenislev]

The same rambling bullshit that everyone like you writes ad nauseum. Do you assholes work on a hive-mind? Do you realize that you've spouted the same idiotic diatribe as every other person I've had to squash here? Something tells me you have no clue. I'm going to go with that something, and explain the deal here. Again.
1. Fantasy creatures and moving upward far enough to escape the planet you are on are not the same thing.
2. Your beliefs aren't based in anything. The fucking biochemist who visits this board has told you that we can't do it. You said we could. You're a moron, that's not mine, or daddy's fault. Grow up, you sorry sack of shit.
3. The fact that genetically engineering a werewolf for no fucking reason is not my idea doesn't mean it's not a stupid idea. Your idea is stupid. It does not work. Go back to school, fucking pay attention, read a book every now and then. There is no excuse for you to be this god damned idiotic. Not one. You have access to ways to educate yourself, and since you're not gonna make it on your looks (we've seen the pictures), you might want to consider workin' on that brain.
4. Did I mention that you're an idiot, and seem to be rather proud of that?
5. I just can't get over the space travel thing. If it's not that with you people, it's "Ohohoho! People like you thought the world was flat and couldn't possibly be round!" Yeah. Like believing in the possible advent of fantasy creatures makes you such a fucking visionary. If you had brain-motherfucking-one in that gargantuan melon on your shoulders (again, seen the pictures), you would also be able to recall that the common, uneducated people mulling about at that time were the ones that believed that. I think it's safe to say that I not only seek out, but retain more information than you. There was math behind the "world is round" idea, and there was math behind escaping the atmosphere. Cold fucking fact. There is none of that behind what you, or any of the other slack-jawed carnival rejects say. You are not a visionary. You are not standing up to "the man." You are not daring to be different. You're just being a stupid fucker, and there's no reason for it. This isn't even a new suggestion. This has been discussed already. We reached the conclusion, given word from someone who works in the field that we will probably never see that sort of thing.
It should seriously be legal for me to kill and eat you.

[neoritter]

...And why spend that much time and money? Because we can. Because we want to. Because we felt like it. Because poeple are curious by nature and want to see what happens. Some one somewhere will find a way to make it work and they will.

Look, there are far more important things to spend money on than some stupid aesthetic bs. Maybe new ways to process ethanol and yield more energy. Maybe, creating a mini-star or fusion energy. Oh, here's a great one, developing a high-energy yielding food source that may just solve world hunger!


Years ago, people like yourself said space travel was impossible.

That would be decades.

People thought there would never be a network of coumputers capable of uniting millions of people in seconds. Guess what? They were proved wrong, all of them. Maybe not in their lifetimes, but they were proved wrong. How? By rapidly advancing science and technology. We may not see real werewolves in our lives, but there will be someday.

I don't think anyone doubted the idea of a network of computers. Probably because no one really knew about computers except the experts. As for werewolves. For someone who says they aren't trying to predict the future, you sound sure that there will be werewolves someday. Sounds like predicting the future to me. Listen, the world govts. are already putting up laws prohibiting the genetic altering of animals or humans with animal dna. Our lovely neighbor to the north has already passed such a law and with the United State's controversy already over simple stem cells I can already see that the USA would pass a similar law. Probably not going to happen. Deal with it.

[The wild one]

Best put something in before it closes. The whole concept of creating a transforming human-animal hybrid with science would not be possible(if it's pointed out by a biochemist, i'm not going to argue).Also, if it didn't work out for doctor Moreau( a science fiction character who did the exact same process by turning animals to people and ended up getting him self killed and demonstated how fallible it is) it is not going to work the other way round. And there are far worse curses than the f-word (it starts with a c, but it is not crap, pretty sure you can figure the rest out.)

[Wan]

First of all: Zen? Keep being polite, please -__-

Second: Zen has a point. At least with currently available scientific methods, it has been probed to be IMPOSSIBLE. Simple enough.

[z_wolf_59661]

Very well. I admit to having some very strange beliefs, and that my beliefs aren't based on anything that can be scientifically proven. Is there anythiong wrong with that? And is there anything wrong with expressing them? Do you believe in aything that has never been proven or can't ever be proven? I do. And as far as who would do said research etc. to make werewolves a reality, I volunteer myself. I honestly have nothing better to do with my time, but if you would like to make suggesions, my mind is open. See, I like to believe that haning an open mind is one of my better qualities, but that's just my opinion. and doesn't really count for anything. But again, I like to have an open mind, which is not to be confused with gullible, as I don't believe things that are obviously wrong, or at least have been proven to be wrong. However, as it is not currently not possible to prove that furure events will or will not happen, I have an open mind for the future. Anything can happen.

[Wan]

There's nothing wrong with having beliefs. I also believe that sometime, human-animal hybrids (werewolves, weretigers :D, etc etc) would be real. But one has to get to reason and understand that, actually, it just isn't possible.

[Zenislev]

Blah blah blah blah, I think I'm open minded for believing stupid shit.

Man, you are not smart enough, nor grounded enough to seriously pursue that research. Shut-the-fuck-up.

Another note: Being open-minded doesn't mean believing in stupid, pointless, pie-in-the-sky fantasies. You are not open minded, you're an idiot. There is a difference, please remember to make that distinction in the future. Example:
When you say "I am open minded about [blank].", replace it with, "I am lucky to be able to tell my ass from a hole in the ground." It's just more truthful.
First of all: Zen? Keep being polite, please -__-

I'll resume being polite when they stop being stupid. If you have an issue with how I chose to address people, we can take it up elsewhere, and I can completely remove your drive. This is officially the last time I will tell you to find something else to do (Like, I don't know, actually managing the forum?) other than bother me with your antiquated notions of polite conversation before taking some sort of action.
By the way, if you were indeed looking for some direction in the "do something else" line, here you go: Close this thread. It has run it's course. If you cannot see that, then I'd first suggest using babel fish to put it in a language you are used to (should the nuances of a foreign tongue be the issue), and failing that, brush up on your situation analysis.

[Wan]

Zen? You aren't telling ME what to do. I'll close this thread when I find it appropriate.
______________________
Let's go back to topic, yes?

As I said, there's nothing wrong in believing that [insert fantasy-like thing here] could be possible. But, we have to stick to reality and realize that it isn't possible RIGHT NOW. We don't have a crystal ball to predict future, so we can't tell if it will happen in 20 years, or even NEVER.
One can have many good ideas, but if they aren't feasible, there's nothing to do about it.

[Were Dono]

>_> Then you shouldn't be telling HIM what to do.
Just because you have a ban button doesn't make you more important. Anyway, I think this kid is a little too obsessed with this whole idea. He refuses to see that it's just most likely not going to happen.

[Wan]

>_> Then you shouldn't be telling HIM what to do.
Just because you have a ban button doesn't make you more important. Anyway, I think this kid is a little too obsessed with this whole idea. He refuses to see that it's just most likely not going to happen.

Er, Dono? I asked Zen in a very politely way -_-;; After all, one of my jobs is to maintain some order in the forum. Anyways, let's discuss this somewhere else, please.

About the other thing, 10000000000000% agreed. Seems that z_wolf_59661 doesn't realize that some things aren't likely to happen. At least not in a short term.

[Vain]

You obviously haven't read any of the other arguments on this forum involving Zen, have you? Zen's not going to stop being Zen. And you're obviously not going to stop coming up with retarded ideas. You, sir, are obviously another person obsessed with something that just isn't real, probably to get out of the shitty reality you have now. Probably. It's not healthy.

Well, I can say that I don't know the history of Zen. I sure am getting the idea of it.
Anyway, I don't think the guy is being serious. I think the word for this type of conversation is 'hypothetical.' Guys, relax. It's just a discussion. Everyone knows that werewolves aren't real. Sure, it's a little nerdy to talk about, but it's something to go on when someone wants to write a story about this sort of thing. What wrong with writing a fiction story with real notions to constitute a reason. It makes the story all the more interesting. Rushing into werewolf movies without an imagination doesn't really come out well. Watch "Cursed". Did you like that movie? They made that movie without a thought process to drive from.
Incidentally, is there a term for werewolf lovers as there is for star trek fans? You know, Trekies or something like that? Geez, next thing you know it there will be conventions with people dressed up in costumes for this sort of thing. And, they'll have the same strange type of arguments as this. Get a grip!

[Were Dono]

Well, I can say that I don't know the history of Zen. I sure am getting the idea of it.
Anyway, I don't think the guy is being serious. I think the word for this type of conversation is 'hypothetical.' Guys, relax. It's just a discussion. Everyone knows that werewolves aren't real. Sure, it's a little nerdy to talk about, but it's something to go on when someone wants to write a story about this sort of thing. What wrong with writing a fiction story with real notions to constitute a reason. It makes the story all the more interesting. Rushing into werewolf movies without an imagination doesn't really come out well. Watch "Cursed". Did you like that movie? They made that movie without a thought process to drive from.
Incidentally, is there a term for werewolf lovers as there is for star trek fans? You know, Trekies or something like that? Geez, next thing you know it there will be conventions with people dressed up in costumes for this sort of thing. And, they'll have the same strange type of arguments as this. Get a grip!

Oh, no. He is quite serious. He's told us before.

[Vain]

Oh come on! No one is that much of a luna tick.(hehe) He's serious, hu? Right, and werewolves are real.

[Were Dono]

Oh come on! No one is that much of a luna tick.(hehe) He's serious, hu? Right, and werewolves are real.

>_> You obviously have never been on a werewolf forum before. I see this all the time.

[Zenislev]

Oh come on! No one is that much of a luna tick.(hehe) He's serious, hu? Right, and werewolves are real.

Oh, he's serious. And the people on here who have claimed werewolves are real are serious. I suggest looking through the older threads. They're not only funny, but educational. They're funducational.
Er, Dono? I asked Zen in a very politely way -_-;; After all, one of my jobs is to maintain some order in the forum. Anyways, let's discuss this somewhere else, please.


You're not keeping order. You're attempting a contest of will with someone who can and will crush you like an ant. No one is interested in your shoddy showmanship. If you believe you have nothing better to do on these forums than follow my posts around and bitch about the tone I take with people who are deserving of no less, then it's time for you to step down from your position.

[kitetsu]

I'm torn. If i don't show readers a whole book of how my werewolves work, they'll bicker all day. But if i do, people of Zen's type would try their utmost to find a tiny hole and scratch it bigger to build up the criticism. I wonder which consequence would be more fun... Hmmmm.....

[neoritter]

Well, I can say that I don't know the history of Zen. I sure am getting the idea of it.
Anyway, I don't think the guy is being serious. I think the word for this type of conversation is 'hypothetical.' Guys, relax. It's just a discussion. Everyone knows that werewolves aren't real. Sure, it's a little nerdy to talk about, but it's something to go on when someone wants to write a story about this sort of thing. What wrong with writing a fiction story with real notions to constitute a reason. It makes the story all the more interesting. Rushing into werewolf movies without an imagination doesn't really come out well. Watch "Cursed". Did you like that movie? They made that movie without a thought process to drive from.
Incidentally, is there a term for werewolf lovers as there is for star trek fans? You know, Trekies or something like that? Geez, next thing you know it there will be conventions with people dressed up in costumes for this sort of thing. And, they'll have the same strange type of arguments as this. Get a grip!


I hope your joking in the last couple of lines, because there already are "furry" conventions where people do that.

Anywho, this whole Wan and Zen issue is getting kind of annoying. Zen you need chill it a bit and at least somewhat respect Wan's authority here. If he says be a little more polite, use a less harsher words. I'm sure from all this time I've seen you on these forums you have a large enough vocabulary to find some at least slightly nicer words. Now, I didn't think this was that bad of a Zen attack. Definitely one of his less flamboyant. So maybe mod interruption was a little uncalled for. But it all comes down to Zen just chilling a bit and not being so stubborn and hard headed in this situation. Stop trying to show up the mod and find a reason for him to quit, etc. We can't obviously force you Zen to stop being you, but tone it down just a tad, at least when a mod (Wan or not) tells you to be a little more polite.

Now Kitetsu the issue here is attempting really create werewolves. I'm sure Zen knows the difference between brainstorming ideas for stories and actually thinking its possible. As do most of us.

[Vain]

Wow. Ok, my theory has just been confirmed about some people. My spidey sense are tingling, not to mention my stomach is growling. I sense that this thread is going down the tube because people can be immature about a discussion. Seriously!

By the way, this is my first time on a werewolf thread forum. I've gone on vampire forums and never came across this sort of thing you're talking about. I don't know. It's all the same to me. It's all werewolves, vampire, the lockeness monster and eskimoes. None of it is real, but geez does this thread have to closed? I want to know what other people views are on where a werewolf comes from, besides the fairy tales prospective that is kind of dull and old. As long as people are talking hypothetically I don't see a problem. Why get so upset! Odds are these people are going close their nuts into a microwave to see if it will make them into a werewolf. I say go ahead! It'll make them sterile anyway.

Also, what the hell is up with your signature, Kitetsu! LOL! Is that the BurgerKing King and McDonnald fighting?

[z_wolf_59661]

Man, you are not smart enough, nor grounded enough to seriously pursue that research. Shut-the-fuck-up.

Another note: Being open-minded doesn't mean believing in stupid, pointless, pie-in-the-sky fantasies. You are not open minded, you're an idiot. There is a difference, please remember to make that distinction in the future. Example:
When you say "I am open minded about [blank].", replace it with, "I am lucky to be able to tell my ass from a hole in the ground." It's just more truthful.


</p>
Then let's come to an agreement: I never said werewolves can become real with current technology, I said future. That means any time between now and eternity. I'll believe what I want to, you belive what you want to, and at the end of eternity, if werewolves never become a reality, then you can laugh in my face. Fair enough? You get to call me an idiot as much as you want, and I will admit I'm wrong when the time comes.

But as I see it, now is not the time. Eternity isn't over yet. Don't tell me I'm wrong when you don't know the answer yourself. Unless you really can predict the future. If you can honestly tell me that werewoles will never exist, and actually prove it, I will believe you, because if it's proven that wereolves will never be real then that means I'm obviously wrong, and as I've said, I won't believe it if it's obviously wrong. Until then, you have no right to tell me what to believe about the future, because it hasn't happened yet and, as far as I know, there's no way to know until it happens. Cal me stupid, call me a dumbass, call me wahtever you want to. Time will tell.

[kitetsu]

Now Kitetsu the issue here is attempting really create werewolves. I'm sure Zen knows the difference between brainstorming ideas for stories and actually thinking its possible. As do most of us.

I know. It's just that some of the words in this thread is so humerus i just had to spit out every typed word from the plate at you folks.

[Zenislev]

</p>
Then let's come to an agreement: I never said werewolves can become real with current technology, I said future. That means any time between now and eternity. I'll believe what I want to, you belive what you want to, and at the end of eternity, if werewolves never become a reality, then you can laugh in my face. Fair enough? You get to call me an idiot as much as you want, and I will admit I'm wrong when the time comes...(And then some other shit.)

I quote:
My two cents:I think it would be very possible to make human/wolf crossbreeds with the level of science we have today or will have in a few years.

You were saying?


Anyway, Neoritter's quite right. However, there is a point that must be made: This is me toning it down. I have yet to call him a scum guzzling social parasite the likes of which should probably just tied to a pyre and burned to insure that neither he, nor any of his kind rise again. Nor have I pulled out the proverbial "big guns", and illustrated, down to the very last detail, just how stupid he is.

Wow. Ok, my theory has just been confirmed about some people. My spidey sense are tingling, not to mention my stomach is growling. I sense that this thread is going down the tube because people can be immature about a discussion. Seriously!

By the way, this is my first time on a werewolf thread forum. I've gone on vampire forums and never came across this sort of thing you're talking about. I don't know. It's all the same to me. It's all werewolves, vampire, the lockeness monster and eskimoes. None of it is real, but geez does this thread have to closed? I want to know what other people views are on where a werewolf comes from, besides the fairy tales prospective that is kind of dull and old. As long as people are talking hypothetically I don't see a problem. Why get so upset! Odds are these people are going close their nuts into a microwave to see if it will make them into a werewolf. I say go ahead! It'll make them sterile anyway.


The big problem is that they don't speak hypothetically. This thread needs to be closed because the whole damned thing has been discussed to death. Read the rest of what's posted here if you want to see what everyone thinks. We don't need to keep an old, fruitless conversation going. There have quite clearly been no new ideas discussed. It's the exact same lame-brained shit that shows up everywhere in regards to this particular section of mythos.

Also, who's upset? I do this all the time. It's just business. If you need an auditory aid, think of Ben Stein reading all of my posts.

[neoritter]

Alright so Wan, why don't we close this. Zen is right this has been done to death. If anything in here needs to be discussed people should make topics and reference various sections of this topic for what they are talking about. But this is your job Wan, so do what you want, if you feel that this should stay open fine and dandy do, but I think if we keep it open we should have sticky at the that basically says: &quot;Anyone that wishes to discuss anything the involves the scientific reasoning behind the possible existance or creation of werewolves should first read the already posted topics and in particular the 'Werewolves - Science?' topic."

[Wan]

Since you keep asking for it...

THREAD CLOSED

About the topic itself: not gonna happen. As I said, at least not in short terms.