Power of the moon

[Kell Hound]

Okay in a lot of werewolf stories the full moon makes them transform. My question is in those movies, comics, and books the werewolf is shown transforming after the sunsets. However, sometimes the moon rises before the sunsets. So shouldn't the werewolf change once the moon rises? Or is the light of the sun esome how bloking ther effect? Anyone got any possible explainations for this?

[rhys]

I would assume that the full moon means something to do with tidal forces. That being the case, when the sun goes down, the people there are slightly farther away from the sun than the people where the sun is high in the sky. Maybe that tiny little difference in gravitational effect is enough to trigger the change.

That's the science version anyway.

Leaving out the science, it's real easy: MAAAGGGIIIIICCCCC!!! (making wiggly finger motions)

[Guest]

Maybe, The gene, or trait, or even curse follows the patterns of a true wolf? If im not mistaken, most hunting, or other agressive actions happen nocturnally, thus, if someone was affected by lycanthropy, The affect would be most prominant during the night, pushing for the transformation?

[Tyraelis]

Well, the light reflected off of the moon has something of a different section of the light spectrum than full daylight, so removing specific frequencies present in sunlight might trigger a reaction- such as the eye's optical (electromagnetic) receptors picking up the correct frequency/ies without sunlight sends a signal to the brain to cause a certain process.

[Leo]

The moon cicles are equal to the changes of the sea's tides of our planet ...and for centuries the moon have been related to outbreakes behaviors..., murders use to happen most on full moon nights... The term "Lunatic" that means "crazy" comes from the word "luna" what means "moon" in spanish.
So many people belive that moon affects and high our feelings in some way, like somepeople have more sex udner full moon than in other nights, from which comes the idea that the full moon is a romantic sign too. In the other hand there are info that show more birhts on full-moon times... :smile:

The facts that most of attacks on nights of fullmoon could have happened due to the fact that in old times the artificial light didnt exist so on those nights with a better natural light it was easier to go out and do such evil things...:P ..and then , old legends...of evil monster lurking on those nights could have appeared to keep away the children from the woods or other places....and so the werewolf legend related to the man as changed one into an evil creature byt the effect of the moon could have appeared.

So for me isn't a thing of light...so a werewolf could just shut his/her eyes and just be safe. When a real werewolf couldn't be safe no matter where he hides from the light effect...
So If The moon is capable to affect the tides...could affect the blood presure of a werwolf being...and so maybe trigger in some way the change...:)

[Tyraelis]

Leo, I see what you're saying, but if that were true, there wouldn't be a need for a full moon (actually, this lends credibility to being able to change shape more frequently). The moon, when up, causes tidal effects whether it is reflecting light or not. I suspect the extra 12000 (general figure) kilometers would have a slight effect as to the gravitational field, rendering it useless during the time that the moon is on the opposite side of the earth. However, the position of the moon would also dictate that werewolves would be able to change at any time that the moon was in the sky, visible or not.

[rhys]

I remember reading a story where the thoery was that there were no male werewolves, and that the full moon from all the legends really refered to a woman's menstrual cycle. The general theory behind the werewolf legends is that the werewolf represents a person freeing their inner rage, aggression, and violence, and since males tend to exhibit those traits much more so than females, this probably isn't valid. I did think it was an interesting idea, though.

[of wolf and man]

Originally posted by rhys@Oct 10 2005, 09:21 PM
I remember reading a story where the thoery was that there were no male werewolves, and that the full moon from all the legends really refered to a woman's menstrual cycle.* * * The general theory behind the werewolf legends is that the werewolf represents a person freeing their inner rage, aggression, and violence, and since males tend to exhibit those traits much more so than females, this probably isn't valid.* I did think it was an interesting idea, though.

715

i suppose you saw the movie "the curse" then huh? it has the same theory going...

[rhys]

I did see the curse, actually. It was alright.

But the story was in some random "horror" story anthology. I picked it up at the library.

[Wolf Moon]

Now, I'm coming at this from a LARper's POV, but most werewolves, at least those who have been werewolves for a while have the ability to trigger the change voluntarily. Night is excellent cover.
However, in the LARP world, involuntary/first changes can happen at ANY time of the day. Just depends on how pissed off said werewolf is. :eyebrow:

[Wolfin Howler]

The way I understand it is that the beast within comes out when it chooses Ive read some stories where the beast within wakes up after a sleeping sometimes the moonlight usually triggers it, I dont think there is just one way to induce a tf it usually depends. Most of the comics and other genre are based off of old lore. Im working on something where the beast within is based on the moon spirits and human psychology :smile: (I dont want to give too much away :wink: ) its still in the works, but I hope to be done with it soon :icon_wolf_paint:

[Zenislev]

I've thought for a bit on this, and came to a conclusion: It's psychosomatic.

The moon in and of itself has no real sway. Such mundane and regularly occuring changes in gravity wouldn't be enough to throw any sort of biological system into something quite so drastic. What you would need is a trigger that goes beyond light receptors and routinely experienced gravitational shifts. The brain contains all things necessary to do that. The same way that people "bring up memories of past lives", the brain can easily take the suggestion that something is supposed to occur when X stimulus is applied and run with it. Thus, in the case of actual werewolves, you really don't need the moon, but with the subconcious linking of what's supposed to go on during said phase (and these myths and such seem to be as old as people as a whole, so the odds of not knowing about them is slim to none) we get the result that we're so used to seeing.

This also covers the idea of random/forced changes. All you would need is a strong enough suggestion that it should occur (or a break in what's considered "normal behavior" as a result of overwhelming emotion). Feel free to ask me to clarify anything.

[neoritter]

couple things, related about some of the posts;
one post says wolfs are nocturnal, they primarily are not considering that their large prey like the deer are not, so hunting at night would not be the right time to hunt. Also gravity would have no affect on a biological level at least to that degree with that little amt of change. I like the one theory of the mind playing the part of transforming the person, especially since clinical lycanthropy in today's world is a mental disease in a few people. Further another post says that the full moon means that there is more light at night with which to do evil deeds, nice theory might be true, but remember that it works both ways, with more light at night it means that the victims can see their attacker better. Also early peoples were afraid of the blackness of the night, it held unknown creatures and things, during those days any form of fire barely lit the path in front of you. the one night where they may be the least afraid is the full moon.
edit: and the movie The Curse, at the end the younger brother of the main character is being transformed into a werewolf as well.

[SSJ_Vash]

Originally posted by Tyraelis@Oct 10 2005, 12:52 AM
Leo, I see what you're saying, but if that were true, there wouldn't be a need for a full moon (actually, this lends credibility to being able to change shape more frequently).* The moon, when up, causes tidal effects whether it is reflecting light or not.* I suspect the extra 12000 (general figure) kilometers would have a slight effect as to the gravitational field, rendering it useless during the time that the moon is on the opposite side of the earth.* However, the position of the moon would also dictate that werewolves would be able to change at any time that the moon was in the sky, visible or not.

689

Thats a Good point, I still feel that it is a Primal, Wolf like setting that triggers it. When you look at the Full Moon I think it is more of a Snap! Then the change occurs.

[Leo]

You know, this is one those thread that have helped me in the comic, in fact I've come with a final idea for the whole reason for the full moon idea. And that's is the duality between the inner spirit and the living things.

Yeah, werewolves in AL will transform if there exist full moon and of course they will tf too because of their own will or because of extreme emotions, how fast? depending on their skill and experience.

Werewolves live through the spirit they carry, the wolf is their spirit when they are human and so the human is their conscience when they are wolves/werewolves , they can/t live without each other part.
So Werewolves by nature are connected to the earth and to the living creatures that are around them and the wolf spirit inside a werewolf as a human respond to other spirits calling , when it happens?, when the full moon rises.
The light of the moon act as a veil of energy for the spirits ....all kind of spirits, even ghosts spirits...and they communicate each other like the reflect of the light through mirrorrs...
So basically the moon's light awake the sleeping spirits when it's at full state , and so the werewolves.
This is not science, this is just my own concept for AL :howl:

[wolfman]

I would assume that you have to be in the direct moon light to transform :coolshift:

[Survivor21]

haven't been here for a while

what if this happen to you. You are studying in your bedroom for a test all a sudden pain comes over you and starts to get hot and hotter and swet. suddenly you dropped on all fours you start growing claws, fur, and fangs starting to get more ripped or your mucles/abs. & growing a muzzle :coolshift: can't controle the power of the full moon.

[mirai]

each book author or webcomic artist has their own idea of how people turn into werewolves

[Lycanthropy]

How true.

[mirai]

everyone has different views

[Убейте Волка]

Originally posted by Wolf Moon@Oct 13 2005, 01:49 AM
Now, I'm coming at this from a LARper's POV


isnt that the conditon where you skin and limbs fall off?



actually, i dont think the moon has anything to do with, i think it was just a stunt that got pulled off during old movies or tales to empathize night time, and just became the running myth after that.

Because i heard of another myth about the fact that werewolves were dracula's elite guards and they could and would transform during the day to capture/kill their targets.

[mirai]

have you been watching underworld, 'cause it's mentioned in it

[Were Dono]

Underworld fucking sucks.

[Luke_Ragnarok]

Originally posted by Were Dono@Jun 30 2006, 09:44 PM
Underworld fucking sucks.

19062

I gathered that from hearing two people talk about it...like it's a good thing.

Blarg.

[mirai]

i have to agree with you there donno

[nikoman64]

yah, no doubt about it.

[Indiana_Jones]

Arrrrrr.....mateys. Drop the cursed treasure chest in the sea, that we found in the Death Shoals. It is not an ordinary curse. By Davy Jones Locker, this damned treasure chest should never be found. DROP IT INTO SEA LADS!!!

The rumors of this treasure chest says, it is an ancient werewolf curse from the devil. If you open the chest during a full-moon, you will be cursed and turn into a werewolf. But, you won't change yet, until after 3 days. You can keep the gold coins and its jewels. The lycanthropy curse is incurable.

A reference to the new Pirates of the Caribbean: Dead Man's Chest.

[kitetsu]

Who's willing to sign a petition against Moon-affected werewolves?

[confidental]

Who's willing to sign a petition against Moon-affected werewolves?

Check out genetic mutations and genetic engineering instead of a full moon curse. Will that make you become a werewolf? :wtf:

[nikoman64]

possibly, but where would they get the genetics, it would have to come from a werewolf, so wouldn't that atleast on werewolf s affected by the moon, or something else?

[kitetsu]

I don't know about Zen, but mitochondria is one factor.

But really, transforming under a full moon... And having the full moon as the sole trigger of the shifting, while the absence of the moon renders werewolves powerless, that's just so unfeasible in reality that i feel i should send a letter to the Mythbusters team.

That is if the whole full moon crap is brought into a discussion where laws of nature, physics, etc. apply.

[mirai]

as i posted earlier, everyone has their own views and ideas

[Убейте Волка]

To change the topic if i may...but id like to know how this all started and how all these stories manifested among the world.

from all modern documented cases it seems its either a LSD trip or someone was warped in the head.

[neoritter]

Explanation for unexplainable events? Someone trying to profit off the idea (though this is actually after the fact). Propaganda, a reason to kill wolves a herder's worst enemy. Bedtime story to scare children. Etc.
Considering the vastness of werewolf myths and variations practically any reason you can think of probably would work.
If you want to see a bit more info this topic here (http://www.alphaluna.net/forum/index.php?showtopic=461) has a good amount of information and some offhanded reasoning here and there.

[Akane Bade]

As Leo was saying, have you ever heard dogs going out of control on full moons? Well, it's does have to do with the tides. Since our bodies are mostly water, the moon's pull sort of "coaxes" us into a state of more heightened senses. We get more energy and more emotional during the full moon. Changing into one, however, is sort of like a chemical reaction. The light of the moon acts as an agent that when it hits our bodies, it triggers and effect which turns them into a different state. ((Of course, it's probably not a chemical causing the effect, that was just an example)) So, the only reason it works under the full moon and not half, quarter, etc. is because the rays wouldn't be strong enough to "trigger" the effect.

That's how I would explain it anyway. :howl:

[Zenislev]

As Leo was saying, have you ever heard dogs going out of control on full moons? Well, it's does have to do with the tides. Since our bodies are mostly water, the moon's pull sort of "coaxes" us into a state of more heightened senses. We get more energy and more emotional during the full moon. Changing into one, however, is sort of like a chemical reaction. The light of the moon acts as an agent that when it hits our bodies, it triggers and effect which turns them into a different state. ((Of course, it's probably not a chemical causing the effect, that was just an example)) So, the only reason it works under the full moon and not half, quarter, etc. is because the rays wouldn't be strong enough to "trigger" the effect.

That's how I would explain it anyway. :howl:

You're not, by any chance, claming to be an actual werecreature, are you? I'm just noting the "we" and the "us" and the "our" thing that seems to repeat itself over and over. If you are making this claim, I would have you know that I am the ruiner of people like you, and you should probably quit while you're ahead.

[Happygun]

You're not, by any chance, claming to be an actual werecreature, are you? I'm just noting the "we" and the "us" and the "our" thing that seems to repeat itself over and over. If you are making this claim, I would have you know that I am the ruiner of people like you, and you should probably quit while you're ahead.

I'd listen to him if I were you, kid. Our forum-goers don't indulge people who pretend to be werewolves. Keep it up and you'll be buried under a veritable landslide of moking posts and hateful diatribes.

[Akane Bade]

By saying "our" and "we", etc. I was refering to humans, and what I thought would happen to these supposed werewolves. I wasn't actually claiming to be a werecreature, although I think that it's entirely possible for someone to be one, however, I am not. Still, I think it's wrong to condemn someone for what they believe, but that's your decision, and I will not question your opinion. No hard feelings, ok? :closedgrin:

[Zenislev]

By saying "our" and "we", etc. I was refering to humans, and what I thought would happen to these supposed werewolves. I wasn't actually claiming to be a werecreature, although I think that it's entirely possible for someone to be one, however, I am not. Still, I think it's wrong to condemn someone for what they believe, but that's your decision, and I will not question your opinion. No hard feelings, ok? :closedgrin:


People don't experience a damn thing when the moon is full. Anything that they "feel" is pure fabrication, be it a concious one or not. Those myths you see about there being more births during full moons are garbage, lunacy is garbage, and anything else associated with said phase of the moon is also pretty much trash. Dogs are more active during the full moon for one reason and one reason only (this also applies to every other predatory animal ever): There's more light, which means more hunting and more hunting means more food. In turn, more food means better chances of survival. They don't "go crazy."

Moving right along, the rays that come off said orbiting hunk of rock are nothing more than significantly weakened sun rays (That's what gives it it's glow. Moon lights up only because the sun's light reflects off it.) Now, if these rays aren't strong enough to even tan the fairest of skin, what would make you think they were strong enough to do anything else? This is why I brought up what I brought up. You claim that these magic moon rays coax "us", whoever "us" is, into a state of heightened senses. This just doesn't happen. To anything. Ever. The only time the rays reflected off the moon actually influence anything in the way you described is in bad, saturday morning cartoons. The moon's phases mean precisely nothing to you. Deal with it.


I won't even go into the impossibilities of the shape shifting that occurs with the fantasy creatures known as werewolves. I've yelled at people enough over that, the information is out there, you go find it.

Then we hit the clincher: The last sentence or so of your post. It's wrong to condemn someone for their beliefs? Seriously? I already stomped all over that one. Some people believe that children are sexual beings. That's their belief. Should we condemn them for that? According to you, no. The Nazis believed that anyone of the Jewish faith were the root of all the problems in the world. Perfectly ok? No, it's not, there are some beliefs that deserve to be laughed at or otherwise shunned, and believing in werecreatures past the age of...I dunno, let's be nice and say 12, is one of them. The part about this simply being my "opinion" is actually funny. I wasn't aware that facts could be made into opinions whenever some kid with a warped world-view decided that they didn't have to adequately defend what they think.

[Arsenic]

The black ball of dust we call "The moon" does have an effect on us. While gravity is a disproportionately weak force, the moon is still a whopping great ball of rock. The shifts in the gravity felt by us may have an effect on our metabolism. While our moon may have a effect on us I can tell you from personal experience that the one thing the moon didn't do to me was make me spontaneously turn into a wolf. @Zen: Why is it impossible that one of use would be one such fabled werewolves?

[Zenislev]

The black ball of dust we call "The moon" does have an effect on us. While gravity is a disproportionately weak force, the moon is still a whopping great ball of rock. The shifts in the gravity felt by us may have an effect on our metabolism. While our moon may have a effect on us I can tell you from personal experience that the one thing the moon didn't do to me was make me spontaneously turn into a wolf. @Zen: Why is it impossible that one of use would be one such fabled werewolves?

Arsenic, I'm gonna tell you right here and now that I've just about had it with the semi-plausible, unresearched crap you seem to adore throwing into these conversations. I will now proceed to shut you up. This time, however, I don't expect you to pipe up again for quite some time.

Here's how it breaks down: The moon doesn't fucking cause tides and gravitational shifts, it contributes to them. If the moon didn't exist, there would still be tides because of the sun. See, tides aren't caused by the moon pulling, tides are caused by the gravitational differences. The earth and moon each pull on eachother, but what keeps them from crashing is their sideward motion, leading them to orbit a common center of mass, that being about 1710 km below the earth's surface. As the moon orbits, it's pull is concentrated on different areas. This has absolutely nothing to do with it's phase, as it's always moving around the earth, and always generates the exact same pull, given that it neither gains nor loses mass when it reflects light.

Moving on: That differential pull never occurs in the human body. Why? Because all parts of you are always an equal distance away from the moon. Not to mention the fact that you do not have a basin, which is indeed necessary to produce some kind of differential pull. You're always in motion anyway, nothing settles, and the differences you might be able to prove exist mathematically are indeed so god damned negligable that they're impossible to observe. But, for the sake of being thorough, let's see just how much the moon's position effects your weight (the only thing it possibly could):

We'll just pull some numbers here. Let's say the person we're studying is 80kg. We know the gravitational pull of earth is about 9.81 m/s^2. Their weight at any given point completely without any other gravitational interference would be about 785 N, or 176 pounds(using the equation W=mg.) Now, let's take two other points. One where the moon is exerting some pull, as it's off somewhere else, but not directly above the person, and the other where the moon is exerting all it's pull, 'cause it's right there. For that, we take the gravitational pull of the moon (using the equation a= GM/d^2, where d= about 3.84 X 10^8 meters, G being the universal gravitational constant, and M = the mass of the moon gives us something like 3.39 X 10^-6 g. That's the force exerted on 1 kg of mass on earth by the moon.), factor in the pull that earth exerts on us, and compare it to those other locations using the process detailed in this article: http://www.jal.cc.il.us/~mikolajsawicki/Tides_new2.pdf (http://www.jal.cc.il.us/%7Emikolajsawicki/Tides_new2.pdf)

you get about 2.5 X 10^-5 percent of a difference. Is it that big of a deal? Nah. The article goes over that too, and I don't feel like re-hashing it, however, here:
After climbing a height of H to reduce earth's pull by about 2.5 X 10^-7g, which would give us that percentage of weight loss, we would use this:
http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i306/Vual/solveforH.jpg?t=1168061509

Solving for H gets us H= .079m. About five steps. Five fucking steps. Are you kidding me? Five steps up is gonna drive you into a god damned frenzy? No, it's not. The moon's gravitational pull does nothing to you. At all. Ever. Shut up. Seriously, I never, ever want to see you posting anything in any of these types of threads again, unless you preface it with "I have no idea what I'm saying."

As for the other bit, we've gone over that. If you want a refresher, here's the main points:

1. No way to transport materials needed to build hair, muscle, bone.

2. No abundant source of materials.

3. No adequate source of energy.

4. Go to hell.

In a rare turn of events: To those who found this post harsh and unnecessarily mean, I do apologize. However, this sort of thing just drives me nuts. I find that the people who post this kind of crap often times have no regard for the ones they're damaging. To give this kid of what...14 years, some kind of false hope that one day, their little fantasy world might come true is a billion times more cruel than anything I do. These people have obviously never even witnessed what it's like to go through life constantly feeling that there is no real place for them, and have never had the displeasure of looking in the mirror and only being able to think "Not one bit of this is right."

The people who cling to these fantasies have a problem, and your touchy-feely "You might get it one day!" attitude isn't helping. This problem is generally referred to as a dysphoria, a term used for when the individual erects, most of the time through no fault of their own, some kind of alternate self-image, and ends up in a constant state of depression and delusion until this false identity is either broken, or becomes a reality. I draw your attention to the gender dysphoric folk usually called Transvestites, or trans-sexuals. For the most part, these people have that operation because that is who they are (at the very least, in their heads), not because they're just weird. The biggest difference here is that there isn't really a damn thing this kid or anyone else who goes about claiming to be some sort of fantasy creature can do about it. Since that identity can never be made a reality, it must be broken in order to maintain the individual's health.

In closing: Arsenic, do me a favor and just butt right the fuck out of these conversations. You're doing more harm than I could ever dream of.

[kitetsu]

<snip>


*sigh*

There you go again with the "DO YOU EVEN REALIZE WHAT THIS BLACK FUCKING THING POKING YOUR HEAD IS?! IT CURES YOU OF THE INFINITE STUPIDITY THROBBING INSIDE THE RATIONALE OF YOUR PSYCHOLOGY" mentality. Can't you just be more fuckin' casual and just take time snipping the more irate parts of your disagreement? Just mentioning technicalities, no matter how long, is good enough. There's no need for overkill combos, such as your closing statement.

[Akane Bade]

First of all, you don't have to get all worked up about it. It's not a big deal. If you are having a problem with my opinion, pm me and I'll gladly talk it over in a civilized manner. Second, just because I'm 14 doesn't mean I'm not smart. Yes, I may have not experienced alot, but again, that doesn't mean you have to go completely ballistic. All I meant when I posted was that if, IF, werewolves did exist, that was how I would think they shifted. But, according to you, they don't. Therefore, you can shrug off my opinion and just completely ignore it and not listen to a word I say. That is fine with me. Third, the moon has an effect on the tides because of its rotation around the earth, we established that fact. That means that because its gravitational pull effects the water, it will effect everything else on the earth too. Again, everything in my post, i.e


Originally Posted By Akane Bade
Since our bodies are mostly water, the moon's pull sort of "coaxes" us into a state of more heightened senses.

was simply another part of my "explanation". But the moon's gravity really does have an effect on us, whether it changes people into wolves or not, that's still to be discovered. And what I meant by condemning people for what they believe in, I believe that werewolves could exist, though I don't know how. So, the point is, it is my OPINION, I'm not saying that everything I am stating is FACT. If you don't know the meaning of the two, go get a dictionary.

I'm not trying to be mean, but since I'm new here, I expected to get a little more slack. I understand that you're angry at people, but please don't vent it on me. Thanks. :closedgrin:

I'm sure you understand.

[Arsenic]

I would like to strike out in a completely different direction for the moment.

Astrology.
Not your common or garden, tabloid astrology where someone writes some bullshit about your star sign, but the astrology using complex calculations and computer simulations. Even to me it sounds far fetched that balls of gas and rock would affect the lives of us little creatures that crawl around on the face of this little ball of gas and rock, but they seem to. If certain solar objects are aligned in a certain way astrology states that certain things will probably happen because the last couple of times these same objects were in the same position these same certain things happened. Thus it is not unreasonable to assume that these objects have an effect on our daily lives.

Pleas read my posts more thoroughly Zen, I never stated that the moon would cause someone to become a werewolf, rather to the contrary.


4. Go to hell.

Tried that, it was hot and the room service was terrible ( not to mention the screaming and all the tourists taking photos of your hotel ).

So you are seriously saying that it is totally impossible ( not just highly improbable ) that any of us are in fact werewolves?

I'm sorry, saint Zen, that I am throwing a kink in your humanitarian efforts but it seems that your holy fervour has been blinding you a bit.
If you pounce on people at there first post they are likely to leave this board without giving what you said a second thought. Hardly a way to cure them.

[Zenislev]

*sigh*

There you go again with the "DO YOU EVEN REALIZE WHAT THIS BLACK FUCKING THING POKING YOUR HEAD IS?! IT CURES YOU OF THE INFINITE STUPIDITY THROBBING INSIDE THE RATIONALE OF YOUR PSYCHOLOGY" mentality. Can't you just be more fuckin' casual and just take time snipping the more irate parts of your disagreement? Just mentioning technicalities, no matter how long, is good enough. There's no need for overkill combos, such as your closing statement.

In order:

1. No
2. No it's not,
And 3. I like the overkill.


*Some stuff that has no basis in anything*

I'm not trying to be mean, but since I'm new here, I expected to get a little more slack. I understand that you're angry at people, but please don't vent it on me. Thanks. :closedgrin:

I'm sure you understand.

Try this at home: Find some stairs. Go up five. Let me know how you feel. The answer is "No different than you did at ground level." You've just simulated the maximum degree of the moon's effects on your body. It hasn't the power to drive any sort of anything in anyone or anything, regardless of it's phase. The only reason you see animals more active during the full moon is because there is more light. You can find the same thing happening if you keep said animals in a lit environment. This is not an opinion, this is cold, hard fact. Arguing this is like attempting to argue that you are viewing these words on the internet.

Moving on, you don't get to call something an opinion just because it's wrong and you believe it anyway. It's not possible for a werecreature to exist. It's not possible for the moon itself to drive any sort of reaction like that. Get over it. You're not "opinionated" or "open minded", you're just plain wrong. You've basically scrawled a "22" at the end of the "2+2=?" question. The moon contributes to a system that's already in place. A system that doesn't effect life at all, save for where living things capable of motion under their own power can go. It doesn't effect metabolisms, it doesn't effect heartrates, it doesn't effect chemical secretion, you're wrong. Read the article I linked you to, then feel free to ask questions as to what it all means. I'll be more than happy to give you a physics lesson, slap a little biology onto that, pat you on the head, and send you on your way.

As for the second bit: No, I treat everyone just about the same. New, old, makes no difference.


I would like to strike out in a completely different direction for the moment.

Astrology.
Not your common or garden, tabloid astrology where someone writes some bullshit about your star sign, but the astrology using complex calculations and computer simulations. Even to me it sounds far fetched that balls of gas and rock would affect the lives of us little creatures that crawl around on the face of this little ball of gas and rock, but they seem to. If certain solar objects are aligned in a certain way astrology states that certain things will probably happen because the last couple of times these same objects were in the same position these same certain things happened. Thus it is not unreasonable to assume that these objects have an effect on our daily lives.

Yes it is, Astrology is bullshit. Physics says so. There're only a few things that could possibly be attributed to Astrology that aren't complete bullshit. Those things, unfortunately for your argument, are also part of Astronomy (both observational and astrophysics. Man, there's that "physics" thing again), which is actually useful. The biggest problem with Astrology, if that's seriously what you're proposing, is that it doesn't give a mechanism as to how these celestial bodies would effect anything. Yeah, way to fuckin' go on that. The "it just does!" excuse wore out in the third grade. Provide for me a mechanism, or shut up.




Pleas read my posts more thoroughly Zen, I never stated that the moon would cause someone to become a werewolf, rather to the contrary.

No, your posts are full of quasi-intellectual garbage.




So you are seriously saying that it is totally impossible ( not just highly improbable ) that any of us are in fact werewolves?

Yes. Yes I am. The odds of one of us being actual, functioning, shapeshifting werecreatures are about as good as you jumping toward the ground and floating. Where statistics may say it's technically possible, it's still not going to happen. I dare you to put up anything that says otherwise. Or, you could save yourself the trouble, admit you're not quite as smart as you'd like to believe, and disappear for a little while.




I'm sorry, saint Zen, that I am throwing a kink in your humanitarian efforts but it seems that your holy fervour has been blinding you a bit.
If you pounce on people at there first post they are likely to leave this board without giving what you said a second thought. Hardly a way to cure them.

Oh, I'm not offering a cure. I'm saying that you, and everyone like you is unnecessarily contributing to the problem. Every single time that I, or anyone else slips in a little dose of reality, you get to ride in on your "BUT IT MIGHT BE POSSIBLE 'CAUSE ANYTHING IS TECHNICALLY POSSIBLE" horse, waving your banner of sheer retardation. Take your shoddy, semi-mysticism and shove it. There is no place in any of these discussions for anyone who's seriously willing to argue that fantasy creatures are real, and I don't really care if you think you're just playing Devil's Advocate. The main points are as follows:

1. You don't know what you're talking about.

2. You like to pretend you do.

3. When you haven't got a leg to stand on, you call upon some kind of misunderstanding that just wasn't there. (You did say that the moon had an effect on us. Indeed it really doesn't. I linked you to a page that proves that.)

4. There's no reason for you to continue to open your mouth on these issues, but you insist anyway (Seriously, you have yet to contribute anything to any of these discussions that some other crack-pot hasn't already.)

Enough, dude. Your game has been called, you got nothin' left, stop trying.

[kitetsu]

YOU HAVE PROVEN YOUR POINT SINCE THE LAST THREAD THAT WAS LOCKED.



Please, just stop, for fuck's sake.

[Indiana_Jones]

Another flame ranting war, when will it stop.

Zen.....your ignorant aren't you?

Jesus! Someone locked this forum up.

[confidental]

Jesus! Someone locked this forum up.

I Agree.

[Silver Predator Wolf]

I got the feeling this was going to happen..........

[Were Dono]

Uhmmm...I have a question for you guys.

Why do you make it seem Zen is the only person out there who thinks people who spew shit about werewolves being true need to be shut up?

Please.
There are tons of other people out there.
Forums that I go to.

The thing is that THESE people are trying to say (because, as I said, there's a lot more out there than Zen) is that it's unhealthy to be stuck in any kind of fantasy.

You may not believe that he's trying to do any good, but you honestly don't know this man, do you? Please. You know him from a god damn forum. How could you possibly know what he's trying to do? Because he seems mean? Because his ways are questionable. Ask him about why his way works a lot more than your "well...there's always a possibility!" Go on. Ask. Instead of fucking assuming.

Come to think of it, have any of you really asked why he does what he does with an open mind? No, I don't think so. Because if you did, you'd stop targeting him like he's some fucking mass murder.

Just like most of you people refuse to come to the reality that it is not possible to turn into a werecreature, they're not just going to suddenly stop doing what they do.

So. once you people change. I'm sure they will as well.

[neoritter]

Arsenic, I'm gonna tell you right here and now that I've just about had it with the semi-plausible, unresearched crap you seem to adore throwing into these conversations. I will now proceed to shut you up. This time, however, I don't expect you to pipe up again for quite some time...
...Shut up. Seriously, I never, ever want to see you posting anything in any of these types of threads again, unless you preface it with "I have no idea what I'm saying..."

...4. Go to hell...

...In closing: Arsenic, do me a favor and just butt right the fuck out of these conversations. You're doing more harm than I could ever dream of

Zen, you have no right nor any place to tell Arsenic let alone anyone else here on this forum to never post again, anywhere. Last I checked you are only a mod in your Main Rol and Free Rol dens. Incorrect information, true or not, is not a bannable offense. And you are basically saying he should be banned (at least from the wolves den). You are not and should not be the "proverbial Cerberus a the gates" Let Wan and Leo and whoever else they decide to be mods on the rest of the forum do that.



In a rare turn of events: To those who found this post harsh and unnecessarily mean, I do apologize. However, this sort of thing just drives me nuts. I find that the people who post this kind of crap often times have no regard for the ones they're damaging. To give this kid of what...14 years, some kind of false hope that one day, their little fantasy world might come true is a billion times more cruel than anything I do. These people have obviously never even witnessed what it's like to go through life constantly feeling that there is no real place for them, and have never had the displeasure of looking in the mirror and only being able to think "Not one bit of this is right."

Now if all this stuff drives you so nuts, ignore these topics. Because contrary to what you are saying you are "scaring" and forcing away new members.

Now this time you seem to be in the wrong. Because in the first post you made; you were already looking for somethign to poke, prod, and smash. None of this conversation would have happened if A) you had ignored Akane Bade's first post or were already assuming something that was not true.


Uhmmm...I have a question for you guys.

Why do you make it seem Zen is the only person out there who thinks people who spew shit about werewolves being true need to be shut up?

Please.
There are tons of other people out there.
Forums that I go to.
Those people are not here, and I am sure they do not overdue it as much as Zen does.



...The thing is that THESE people are trying to say (because, as I said, there's a lot more out there than Zen) is that it's unhealthy to be stuck in any kind of fantasy.

You may not believe that he's trying to do any good, but you honestly don't know this man, do you? Please. You know him from a god damn forum. How could you possibly know what he's trying to do? Because he seems mean? Because his ways are questionable. Ask him about why his way works a lot more than your "well...there's always a possibility!" Go on. Ask. Instead of fucking assuming.

I'm sorry but none of us are as "close" to Zen as you are, nor are we as possibly biased when talking about him. These topics are not made to ask Zen anything. I don't come on this forum to ask Professor Zenislev about every little theory or idea I have. These topics are made for people to express their opinions. If you disagree with a reason or thought process, is it so hard to simply state the facts? Instead of inserting the "fluff" I like to call it of personal barbs and such.



Come to think of it, have any of you really asked why he does what he does with an open mind? No, I don't think so. Because if you did, you'd stop targeting him like he's some fucking mass murder.

Does what? What does he do? Is it some job? If its related to Alphaluna than somethings up here, because if its a job he's doing here on the AL forum then its selfendorsed.

And Zen. Say what you want to say, but know that this is all I am going to say to you, and its been said. Take it as you want.

Now lets please get this back on topic. And try not to lock another topic.

[Were Dono]

Those people are not here, and I am sure they do not overdue it as much as Zen does.

I'm sorry but none of us are as "close" to Zen as you are, nor are we as possibly biased when talking about him. These topics are not made to ask Zen anything. I don't come on this forum to ask Professor Zenislev about every little theory or idea I have. These topics are made for people to express their opinions. If you disagree with a reason or thought process, is it so hard to simply state the facts? Instead of inserting the "fluff" I like to call it of personal barbs and such.

Does what? What does he do? Is it some job? If its related to Alphaluna than somethings up here, because if its a job he's doing here on the AL forum then its selfendorsed.

And Zen. Say what you want to say, but know that this is all I am going to say, and its been said. Take it as you want.

Now lets please get this back on topic. And try not to lock another topic.

1. How would you know? You wouldn't, would you? No, that's right. 'Cause you don't actully see any of this go down, do you?

2. Never said that these topics were there for asking him. Never said they were. If I did, I'd like you to point it out.
What I did say was actully ask him instead of assumeing. 'Cause none of you have actully asked why he does what he does, really. And then you assume. And I just sit there and laugh as I see you people thinking you know all about what he's doing. Here's a hint: You don't.

3. If you read what I said, you wouldn't be asking me, now would you?

[neoritter]

1. How would you know? You wouldn't, would you? No, that's right. 'Cause you don't actully see any of this go down, do you?
How would I know? Because believe it or not, this is not the only forum I frequent, and not the only one that likes to talk about mythology. Yes there are some like him. But most are not. And again, when it does "go down" it always will be about the same as what happens here. Because nothing goes down, when people can politely talk about a subject.



2. Never said that these topics were there for asking him. Never said they were. If I did, I'd like you to point it out.
What I did say was actully ask him instead of assumeing. 'Cause none of you have actully asked why he does what he does, really. And then you assume. And I just sit there and laugh as I see you people thinking you know all about what he's doing. Here's a hint: You don't.
Okay okay, so we're supposed to ask him about some sort of charity work he's doing here for the forum. Molding use into super analytical thinkers and IQ busters, who know all and see all right. Or is there something I'm missing here. Because whatever he's doing can't be that important or as profound as you are making it out to be.

[Zenislev]

Zen, you have no right nor any place to tell Arsenic let alone anyone else here on this forum to never post again, anywhere. Last I checked you are only a mod in your Main Rol and Free Rol dens. Incorrect information, true or not, is not a bannable offense. And you are basically saying he should be banned (at least from the wolves den). You are not and should not be the "proverbial Cerberus a the gates" Let Wan and Leo and whoever else they decide to be mods on the rest of the forum do that.

It should be when it endangers the health of aleady unstable individuals. Not to mention, if I were to follow you around all day and just shout inane things, drawing attention away from actual facts, wouldn't you tell me to shut up? Yeah, you would.

Not to mention, aren't you the last person who should be saying anything about overstepping boundaries? That's like me telling someone to be nice. It just doesn't work. Go play now.




Now if all this stuff drives you so nuts, ignore these topics. Because contrary to what you are saying you are "scaring" and forcing away new members.

Because ignoring the problem doesn't make it go away.



Now this time you seem to be in the wrong. Because in the first post you made; you were already looking for somethign to poke, prod, and smash. None of this conversation would have happened if A) you had ignored Akane Bade's first post or were already assuming something that was not true.

The reasons behind that have been covered. What school do you go to again? I should look into that one.



Those people are not here, and I am sure they do not overdue it as much as Zen does.

Those people are here. If you don't see them, that's your own fault. Wolfen was one such person. The Defiant One was another. Hell, you're walkin' a real thin line yourself, Mr. "IT COULD HAPPEN, BECAUSE CATERPILLARS TURN INTO BUTTERFLIES!"




I'm sorry but none of us are as "close" to Zen as you are, nor are we as possibly biased when talking about him. These topics are not made to ask Zen anything. I don't come on this forum to ask Professor Zenislev about every little theory or idea I have.

First and foremost, who gives a shit? I wouldn't want the majority of you to get to know me anyway.

Anyway: That doesn't mean I can't and won't show up in them. You can't claim that I have no right to tell someone that they've got no place in a topic, then turn around and do the same thing. Besides, your theories are stupid. So are most of your ideas. And you're not funny. That's the key, ya know. Being funny.



These topics are made for people to express their opinions. If you disagree with a reason or thought process, is it so hard to simply state the facts? Instead of inserting the "fluff" I like to call it of personal barbs and such.

If my typed words hurt anyone, they aren't worth the time of day to begin with. Ultimately, who gives a shit what I say about them? I obviously don't care what I say about someone. Why should you?



Does what? What does he do? Is it some job? If its related to Alphaluna than somethings up here, because if its a job he's doing here on the AL forum then its selfendorsed.

I do that voodoo that I do so well. Seriously, dude. You lack the cognitive ability to play me on this field. You know it. I know it. This doesn't concern you, much like every other time I've made you look stupid. Walk away.



And Zen. Say what you want to say, but know that this is all I am going to say, and its been said. Take it as you want.

Ok, in that case, I'll take it as you saying "Oh man, I just remembered that I talk out of my ass all the time, and I'll close off any line of communication before someone points that out."



Now lets please get this back on topic. And try not to lock another topic.

This topic was already discussed to death before Akane Bade entered it. God forbid we force a little pruning.


In fact, why hasn't this been closed already? Wasn't the siren call of "Zen is mean!" the ultimate thread closer? The call has been sounded, and I see no action. Here:

Oh my god! I'm not nice! Someone, quickly, close the thread before someone gets slightly annoyed! Or worse, learns something!

[Arsenic]

If a 14 year old truly believes/hopes that he is/could be come a werewolf, and retains this belief into adulthood, he probably isn't entirely with it, and should already have a therapist.

Teens in general aren't that satisfied by who they are. Taking this into consideration it isn't too hard to follow the "Hey, werewolves are cool. Wouldn't it be cool if I could be one?" train of thought.

Could it be that misguided but otherwise quite harmlessly hopeful teens are being mistakenly thought of as sick individuals.

Another possibility is that they are fully aware that werewolves don't exist but attempt to persuade others that they are. They want to be part of the group and be popular. They know that this tactic works on forums like
http://forums.furtopia.org
but don't realise that it won't work everywhere.

Either that or Zen is right and they are truly insane( or near enough ) and then all our efforts would be in vain. If someone truly believes that they are a werewolf and from there POV change every full moon. A belief like that, a belief similar to that what radically religious people experience, is very hard to break.

Astrology. Because you cannot explain why something happens doesn't mean that it doesn't happen. Take pre-Newtonian scientists and philosophers, they couldn't explain the mechanics behind why a dropped rock would fall down. Even Newton couldn't explain how all masses are attracted to each other, but he was near enough correct.

=======================

Back on topic.
May I also bring in another reason why changing gravity ( felt by us ) might not control shifting: From our point of view our moon orbits the earth every 24 hours ( or near enough ). If gravity did control shifting, your werewolf would be shifting on a 24 hour period, not on the basis of one moon cycle.

If shifting was controlled by the reflected radiation off our moon then you would have werewolves that don't shift in rainy nights. Handy if you dislike the wet dog smell but still quite lame.

@Zen: Would you please note down the process you used to calculate the variation in the force exerted on us by the moon? Not a 3 page long explanation with loads of background information, just the answer you would be expected to give at a physics test.

[Wan]

I could have sworn that WE TALKED ABOUT THIS, Zen.

[Arsenic]

Zen, you are a bully.

It may or may not bring back memories of your schooldays, but nevertheless you are. You take pleasure in posting abusive language and degoratory remarks in order to undermine the self-worth of weaker willed individuals. This is your favourite ( discussion ) tactic, you go on and on until the others either give in because they cannot take your abusive language or give up on you and leave the discussion. A very effective way of "winning" a discussion but when you are trying to convince someone of something it is quite counter-productive. It may be the reason why you find it so hard to get your point across, because people who hate your guts generally don't tend to listen to you too well.

You seem to be under the impression that you are some fairytale knight in shining armour who will win through in the end, merely because you are right. There is much more to a discussion ( if you can call this that ) than being right.

I really truthfully hope that you can prove me wrong.

[Zenislev]

I could have sworn that WE TALKED ABOUT THIS, Zen.

We talked about me not dropping the hammer on newbies. You didn't say anything about telling people that are A) Wrong and B) Beligerent that they're just being stupid.



Zen, you are a bully.

It may or may not bring back memories of your schooldays, but nevertheless you are. You take pleasure in posting abusive language and degoratory remarks in order to undermine the self-worth of weaker willed individuals. This is your favourite ( discussion ) tactic, you go on and on until the others either give in because they cannot take your abusive language or give up on you and leave the discussion. A very effective way of "winning" a discussion but when you are trying to convince someone of something it is quite counter-productive. It may be the reason why you find it so hard to get your point across, because people who hate your guts generally don't tend to listen to you too well.

You seem to be under the impression that you are some fairytale knight in shining armour who will win through in the end, merely because you are right. There is much more to a discussion ( if you can call this that ) than being right.

I really truthfully hope that you can prove me wrong.

Wow, I hadn't even responded to the last volley of jabbering. I do suppose I was bullying you with my mind. My fault, sometimes that telepathy gets the best of me.

Anyway, I'm under no such impression. I don't expect to "win", I expect to plant seeds of doubt. The odds of you coming out and admitting that you haven't a brain in your head are slim, but somewhere down the line, it'll hit you. To be honest, it usually takes people a year or so to realize that I was right, they were stupid, and then regret it. Before I forget: They may not listen, but they'll never forget. Ever.


At this point, I guess I'm headed for your last post before this one. Still confused about the relevance to this one, though. If you want to call observations "bullying", go for it. Regardless of what you call it, I'm still right, you're still wrong.





If a 14 year old truly believes/hopes that he is/could be come a werewolf, and retains this belief into adulthood, he probably isn't entirely with it, and should already have a therapist.

Seriously? Damn, I wasn't aware of that. That couldn't possibly be what I was hinting at.



Teens in general aren't that satisfied by who they are. Taking this into consideration it isn't too hard to follow the "Hey, werewolves are cool. Wouldn't it be cool if I could be one?" train of thought.

Dude, you are like a fucking genius. To get serious: This would be the beggining stages of a much greater problem. One that you foster with the constant "It could be possible" chanting. Rather than nipping it in the bud before it becomes a huge problem, you and everyone like you adopts the attitude of "they'll grow out of it." Well, they won't if they think it's perfectly ok, and it's much easier to fix now than it would be later.



Could it be that misguided but otherwise quite harmlessly hopeful teens are being mistakenly thought of as sick individuals.

Another possibility is that they are fully aware that werewolves don't exist but attempt to persuade others that they are. They want to be part of the group and be popular. They know that this tactic works on forums like
http://forums.furtopia.org (http://forums.furtopia.org/)
but don't realise that it won't work everywhere.

That'd be stage two.




Either that or Zen is right and they are truly insane( or near enough ) and then all our efforts would be in vain. If someone truly believes that they are a werewolf and from there POV change every full moon. A belief like that, a belief similar to that what radically religious people experience, is very hard to break.

And this is the scenario I attempt to avoid. It is hard to break those beliefs, and the chances of doing so without completely destroying the individual's established identity are slim to none. Without the intervention of the people they most often have any contact with (those they don't ever see: Internet forum goers, pen pals, etc.), it's a real quick trip from stage one to the worst case scenario.



Astrology. Because you cannot explain why something happens doesn't mean that it doesn't happen. Take pre-Newtonian scientists and philosophers, they couldn't explain the mechanics behind why a dropped rock would fall down. Even Newton couldn't explain how all masses are attracted to each other, but he was near enough correct.

The problem here is that we found a mechanism. In all the years astrology has existed, no one's even been able to guess at said mechanism. It's bullshit, get over it. Astrology is in the same category as Alchemy: Provided the basis for a few useful things, but is just plain rubbish past that.




@Zen: Would you please note down the process you used to calculate the variation in the force exerted on us by the moon? Not a 3 page long explanation with loads of background information, just the answer you would be expected to give at a physics test.

Click the link. It leads to a published article detailing exactly how you are just plain wrong. Here's the link again:
http://www.jal.cc.il.us/%7Emikolajsawicki/Tides_new2.pdf
Be sure to read all of it.

[Were Dono]

Zen, you are a bully.

It may or may not bring back memories of your schooldays, but nevertheless you are. You take pleasure in posting abusive language and degoratory remarks in order to undermine the self-worth of weaker willed individuals. This is your favourite ( discussion ) tactic, you go on and on until the others either give in because they cannot take your abusive language or give up on you and leave the discussion. A very effective way of "winning" a discussion but when you are trying to convince someone of something it is quite counter-productive. It may be the reason why you find it so hard to get your point across, because people who hate your guts generally don't tend to listen to you too well.

You seem to be under the impression that you are some fairytale knight in shining armour who will win through in the end, merely because you are right. There is much more to a discussion ( if you can call this that ) than being right.

I really truthfully hope that you can prove me wrong.

Yeah, see, this is what I was talking about.
The assumeing thing.
Once again, I just sit back and laugh at what an idiot you're making yourself look.
Because, what you just assume isnt anything like the truth.

[Arsenic]

Why, Zen, do you keep on misinterpreting what I am saying, is my grammar that bad and are you unable to clearly read what I write?

BTW I asked for a formula ( actually the series of ones you used to calculate the variation caused by the moon ). No frills, no thrills, just the math.

@Dono: It walks like a duck ....

If you don't know everything you have to assume and because I'm not god I assume a lot of stuff. I assumed that he was getting some sadistic pleasure out of insulting people and making them feel bad.

Please, you know him better, could you explain this bully like behaviour? ( I already know about his quest to rid the world of people who believe that werewolves exist/they are one/ etc. )

[Wan]

Ok guys, PLEASE move the bully discussion somewhere else and stay on topic.

I don't want to see any more threat or something like that. There are many other ways to deal with things.
Otherwise, I'll close this thread without any more warning.

[Zenislev]

Why, Zen, do you keep on misinterpreting what I am saying, is my grammar that bad and are you unable to clearly read what I write?

Point out the misinterperetation.



BTW I asked for a formula ( actually the series of ones you used to calculate the variation caused by the moon ). No frills, no thrills, just the math.

And I pointed you to where those formulas may be found, used by someone who does indeed have not only a degree in the subject, but had their work published. What with the potential for a statement like "Zen has no degree in the field.", I like it better this way. Also, it's someone else telling you that you're wrong. They're pretty easy to spot, as they are formulas, not text. If you refuse to even skim through, glancing at said formulas, plugging the numbers in, and checking them yourself, well, that's just not my problem, now is it?




If you don't know everything you have to assume and because I'm not god I assume a lot of stuff. I assumed that he was getting some sadistic pleasure out of insulting people and making them feel bad.

Let me save you the trouble there: I don't care enough about you to derive any sort of pleasure from anything involving harming or helping you.

[Arsenic]

Notice that I'm using a different but similar formula to the one used in your PDF. It calculates the attraction between two point masses. Normally this wouldn't strictly apply to a 3d object such as us humans but because our mass is so extremely small ( compared to a planet ) and the moon is circular you can cheat and use it anyway.

F=G(m1m2/d^2)


F is the force exchanged between the two bodies ( in newton ), in this case, a person, and the moon.

G the universal gravitational constant ( approx 6.67x10^-11 )

m1 a human

m2 the moon

d the average distance between the moon and our human

Because there are no + or - in the formula and none of the variables are 0 we must conclude that we have an answer and that the moon does have an effect on us.


Point out the misinterperetation.

For as start you suddenly brought up tides in your response to post #40. I don't believe that I ever mentioned tides.


More later ...

[Wan]

Thanks for not listening to my advise.

Thread closed.